I was saying to one of my mates yesterday I think we could end up doing this, much like Robson did in 1990.
Marc Guehi getting loads of praise on social media. He deserves it. I've said all along he's our most naturally talented centreback behind stones
Not really at all true though is it. For starters, when he came in the 2016-2018 was possibly the worst pool of players a manager had to pick from. Since then, he's never had a great midfield. The defence and midfield pales in comparison to the 00's side. People exaggerate what Southgate actually has available. The defence is not world class whichever way you cut it and he's always lacked quality midfielders capable of playing deep. Two things that are usually prominent features of most tournament winning sides. I mean the fact people are clamouring for Adam Wharton basically shows the difficult situation he's in. Could you imagine him being remotely near the team of an actual great international side, yet alone the fans clamouring for him?
Why would we sacrifice one of our most reliable performers in Saka though to try and accomodate someone who rarely does anything regardless of what position they play for England? Saka is such a reliable attacking outlet for England and the only player other than Kane with a decent track record for goalscoring, taking all that away to try and throw him to left wing back - something we tried to do against Italy before the 2022 world cup and really didn't work, would be very strange. I'm not saying England should give up on Foden, after the tournament there's plenty of room to try and explore best ways to fit such a talent into the side. But the tournament is not the time to do that. Sometimes good players for whatever reason just aren't going to fit into a team. It happens. Last world cup, Lautauro Martinez was clearly the best striker Argentina had on paper, he just didn't play that well and didn't fit their side as much as Alvarez who played ahead of him for most the tournament including the final, that's fine. It's what a good manager should do, players to fit the team, not the team to fit the player as everyone keeps proposing for Foden.
Apparently some of the foreign press were basically saying only Jude showed up last night but I guess they were just looking from attacking perspective because not sure how you can say Guehi doesn’t deserve a big shout out. Also harsh on Saka too especially in the first half.
Foden is one of our truly world class players, one of the best attacking midfielders in the world, he's the least of our problems IMO. He'll produce in the later stages. Had 2 assists vs Senegal and then a solid game vs France. He won't be at his best in this position, but he has to play. TAA on the other hand has never played there before and I think we saw why yesterday. Wharton or Mainoo have to be tried. Wharton is the more conservative option, probably closer to Philips, would give Southgate the security he loves. TAA isn't creative nor solid defensively; one thing to be creative from right back, a completely different task to do it from midfield
The whole team was fine really, from a defensive perspective. It would be hard to criticise particular Guehi and Stones given they basically did everything anyone could reasonably expect, against one of the more difficult strike forces in the tournament. Maybe Trippier and Walker lacked from an attacking perspective, although given his situation being played at left back Trippier had as good a game as could reasonably expected. Going forward, sure plenty of underwhelming performances from most the players outside first half Bellingham and Saka.
it is definitely true. he's never had a good midfield because he has no idea how to set up a midfield. England has won almost every tournament at youth level, the talent pool is big which wasn't the case at all 20 years ago. Foden Bellingham Kane are among the very best players in the world, Walker is probably the best right back in the world, Rice is among the best DM in Europe, Stones is a top top level CB. We have to stop overrating the other nations squads, however, most have much better coaches. If Southgate needs the top best 11 players in the world in their respective positions to be competent, then there's a problem. He has plenty of talent at disposal let's be realistic
When people on here were advocating for the likes of Winks as a must to be starting to "set up the midfield" properly it shows it most definitely has not been true and still isn't. Teams with the best midfielder and/or defence usually win tournaments. There are the odd exception, but that is the general rule. England has neither, and never has had either under Southgate. England will always struggle in tournaments against the best teams till we actually develop world class deep lying midfielders, something other countries do pretty routinely. Not to say Southgate can't be more proactive in changes, or set ups are always perfect but to ignore the obvious issues is being quiet blind to England ever actually solving them. Which is namely despite the improved youth record, we still don't have the Xavi's, Pirlo's, Kroos', Modric's who decorate the successful international teams of recent times. France are actually something of the exception though set up very conservatively to play on the counter, and basically cede the midfield battle. Till England is able to produce that kind of world class player, it doesn't really make that much difference if England has 1 or 5 world class attacking midfielders all wanting to play the same position.
we have very good defenders. as for a deep central midfielder, there are tons of options to make up for it, that's where the coach plays his part. Griezmman had never played deep in his life before the last WC, not once. Deschamps, who's hardly the most hipster coach, did it. Kroos Pirlo Modric are all former number 10 btw. And again, you don't need to have the best deep midfielder in the world to win it, you just need one who can do a decent job and not a complete mess like Henderson against Croatia
Not sure I’m on board with the view Wharton is similar to Kalvin Phillips I have to say and if that’s the case then he’s really nothing to be excited about and from I’ve seen he’s a much better talent than Phillips and is naturally more composed on the ball whilst also being progressive. Sure it’s early days but the signs are good with him imo.
If England set up like France you would HATE it. France set up against decent sides to give up the midfield, play 3 centre backs in the defence - Kounde will rarely venture forward, and look to hit teams on the break with the pace of Mbappe and Dembele, with Giroud's hold up play as an out ball. In the world cup 2018 it was even more negative than that, with Matuidi out wide to help play a James Milner type defensive winger role. France don't even try to win the midfield against good teams, even decent teams. They rely on their good, rigid defence, and pace on the attack. I mean its successful for them, but you can't exactly criticise Southgate then hold up Deschamps as a figure, when he's basically just a more conservative version of Southgate.
you're correct I do not like Deschamps tactics at all, I'm just saying he improvised to solve their deep midfielder issue. I'm just not jealous of France's pool of talents. they're better in some areas but we have more than them in others. They can win it, so can we
I mean he didn't really did he, Griezzmann wasn't at all deep, he was a attacking central midfielder. He basically just moved into how we play Bellingham. He had Rabiot and Tchoumeni cleaning up behind him after him all tournament. And as said, France basically do show one solution to not having deep lying playmakers - its just that solution happens to be a more extreme version of how Southgate currently plays, with players more suited to it. The second half yesterday is exactly how France would have approached it, albeit with a more potent counter attack. France won the 2018 final with 34% possession, 38% against Morocco of all teams in the semi final last year.
let's agree to disagree. And I don't think our team would be better with Adrien Rabiot ps : I watched the game in France yesterday, and before the game, the commentators, including Lizarazu, were amazed by the quality of the England squad, albeit surprised that Rashford and Grealish didn't make it
We can, and I don't think we'd be better with Rabiot either. I'm just saying France's solution to lacking world class playmakers has been to sit back and let the opposition dictate the game. Which works for them but is basically strange to bring them up as a better managed alternative, but also decry Southgate as too negative.
It’s like the usual journalist gang have already made up their mind with Trent in midfield. So they will just praise it regardless. If Trent is going to play there why even bother with Foden on the left? Just stick a pacey direct option there like Gordon. Trent is basically going to ping the ball for someone to run onto most of the time. That whole left side will be a mess if we continue this way. Trippier slowing everything down and cutting inside. No left footed CM and Foden drifting around seeking the ball. That is only focusing on the issues with the ball. Trent Alexander-Arnold signalled a new approach to England’s third midfield role - more attacking, more risk. It was worth ithttps://t.co/SvuqnMM9JB— Sam Wallace (@SamWallaceTel) June 17, 2024
The mythical passing range wasn't even much on display last night. The second half should in theory have been perfect for it as Serbia pushed up, except for the fact that he could barely get on the ball, and then the few times he got it, usually lost it straight away. He lost possession more times than any other player (equal with Walker) despite being subbed on 69 minutes. Not exactly a trait to value in his position. Neither Denmark or Slovenia are particularly pacey sides so he could easily be in at right back, if we really wanted him in the side.
Trent lost possession 11 times last night, on one occasion it led to Sebia's best chance of the game, and another he was bailed out but Rice in the 2nd half. He will not get away with that against better opposition. He was ok yesterday, was clearly the weakest of the 3 in midfield, seems odd by Wallace to dedicate an article to praising him, but you come to expect that with the level of current day journalism. They spend 90% of there time writing about transfers and finances and have very little insight to what happens on the pitch.
We're live from the #ThreeLions' basecamp!12 players are on the pitch for training, while the XI that started against Serbia – plus @_JarrodBowen, Conor Gallagher and @LukeShaw23 – are taking part in a recovery session 👊 https://t.co/E0oN6b5mhl— England (@England) June 17, 2024
—————-kane ……Foden……….Saka Shaw…rice…Jude….Trippier ……..guehi..stones..Walker …………..Pickford This is what would be more realistic with Foden as an inside 10 and Saka drifing wide and Bellingham as your box to box. Kane drops back anyway so between Foden Kane and Jude its overkill. Foden is a luxury player but this is how he can be used well. Jude is the one that needs to be pushed back. This also becomes a 532 when defending but also allows Stones to push up to support Rice in the build up play when pressing so Jude can run into the box. It takes tactical fluidity and a lot of work on the part of the manager but it can be done and they have the personnel. Playing Jude as a 10 is nice but he is the best midfielder on the ball and should be dictating play. He can still find goals.
You are both correct. Southgate has tried to emulate Deschamps purposefully and he will see the Euro 2020 run as a success where he played the percentages and it just did not go his way. I would suggest that when you are doing what France does those margins are actually large at the extremes and are made up by having the best LW forward not only in the world but maybe the second best of all time after Ronaldo. Saka is a good player but he is not Kylian nor is Foden Griezman for me. Jude is better than Pogba 2018 and Kane is better than Giroud but again when you play this way you are basically asking to go deep and most likely fail at a challenging hurdle but hopefully win one of these by circumstance. Even Deschamp failed 2016 failed 2020 failed 2022. And 2022 was the only time he really met them open up in a final as they had to since they were behind. Basically he was fortunate to win 2018 because he played Croatia who were not of his quality because Southgates tactics did not work against Croatia. Its a weird one. If a manager like Deschamp and Southgate have a strong group of players with one or two generational talents in their position and are given 5 opportunities and find success once is that a proven formula? Maybe so but again I will go back to the Kylian point that when you play the margins like this it is this advantage that really takes you over the line. By definition this system is asking Jude and Saka to carry the team through each hurdle. Its a win the world cup go out to Switzerland on PKs formula. Dont get me wrong though its not to be underestimated how hard the players have to work in both set ups. Its not easy to close shop whatsoever. And when your weakness is individual defending and individual build up play on the ball you can see the logic of both Southgate and Deschamp. England will be difficult to beat and thats most important. You rarely see teams win tournaments. It is more about managing them and surviving them. Messi 2022 Maradona 86 are very much exceptions. France 98-2000 Spain 2008-2012 are ideal but require perfect squad balance.