Is ARM midfield the new MMA?

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by OWN(yewu)ED, Mar 25, 2024.

  1. tefftlon

    tefftlon Member

    Real Madrid
    United States
    Jan 11, 2023
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I've been asking for the RAM midfield since it first came available. I get why Reyna was played on the wing, but I wanted him in midfield.

    I do not get why he played so deep. He did well and it worked... but feel like swapping McKennie and Reyna's spots on the field would've worked better. But hey, it worked.

    It's real nice to have 4 very competent guys to back up these spots.

    I need to watch some PSV to see why Tillman is doing so well there but it doesn't quite translate to the national team yet (I felt he was just OK against Jamaica)

    Johnny is an easy choice to slot in for Adams. Different type of player but both do very well, the team is just gong to have to adjust a little better when Johnny is on the field; I think it's lack of reps/chemistry for why he doesn't look as good more than ability.

    DLT and Musah are in a competition to who can round out their game better. DLT adds some defensive steel or Musah adds some offensive output then they become the front runner. I lean Musah but the gap between both is pretty small, in my opinion.
     
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  2. cyberthoth

    cyberthoth Member+

    Nashville SC
    Aug 7, 2000
    Nashville, TN
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think ARM is our best midfield line-up this cycle but in two years, that M could be Musah.

    McKennie brings something intangible to the midfield that raises its level for sure and I feel comfortable putting him out there against anyone, but I think we can all agree Musah has the ultimate higher level if he could just reach it. Just the ability to possess the ball that we'd have with Reyna and Musah is fun to think about, with Adams cleaning up everything behind them. That's a midfield that would take us to the next level with McKennie bringing energy off the bench -- but it's going to take growth from Musah that we didn't see this year.
     
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  3. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Considering Musah’s versatility, this makes the most sense, as we could prepare to be the automatic first sub off the bench, sort of deal.
     
  4. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    For Reyna, defense is about focus and effort, not capability. He's generally been pretty good for the US since the World Cup.

    Yesterday was largely about Mexico becoming a direct team with less desire for possession and no Hector Herrera replacement, but it also was about Gio working pretty hard on defense when the situation arose. He should get credit.
     
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  5. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I don't think Tyler's passing is in the same stratosphere and if there's pressure applied, it gets even more obvious.

    Wes can hit long switches and over the top, but he's not a reliable or accurate passer in shorter distances or on the ground. In fact, he creates a lot of problems with turnovers deep -- it's why Juve really doesn't put him there, either.

    Still, I don't think this spot is anywhere near permanent for Gio. I think it was somewhat situational -- concern about pressing, knowing that they wouldn't try to keep possession, and a desire to counterpress.

    I think McKennie will play back and bomb switches like he did in the World Cup quite a bit and I think we'll play a single pivot as well.

    Reyna's always going to play somewhat in the build up if he's in the midfield -- he's a huge weapon in that manner, but I don't think he's suddenly a permanent regista here. This looked to me like an opponent-specific adjustment.
     
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  6. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I think the challenge for Luca right now is that with Musah looking like the 4th midfielder at the moment, the #3 true 8 / #2 shuttler, which he probably is and has been, is now the second of those off the bench in a lot of lineups.

    Tillman is sort of the first attacking midfielder sub right -- although I wonder if that's true in a big game anymore.

    I wouldn't have minded seeing Luc as the backup LW (or LM when we went 442).
     
  7. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Musah will have to figure out how to do more than one good run a game to earn it. He doesn't even have Nagbe's final third game yet, and that's saying something for a guy who is essentially a very athletic Nagbe right now.
     
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  8. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    LDLT and Aaronson are on the bubble now. Probably on the outside looking in if everyone is healthy. Haji helped himself in the last window and is probably ahead of both. I know LDLT and Haji don't play the same position. But with Tillman able to play both midfield and wide forward, the transitive property is operative.
     
  9. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I think people should probably come to terms with the possibility that Musah doesn't develop the passing and offense people are looking for. Or perhaps not for a while.

    He's still young, and he can improve, but we're going on 2.5 years since he first showed up, and I've not really seen any noticeable improvement in the relevant areas.

    I like him a ton, but you can't win games on midfield dribbles. We should know; we've tried.
     
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  10. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Mexico under Lozano has become much more of a press and play direct team. They no longer try to possess with the midfield they have, at least not against better teams.

    I think the move on Reyna was a number of things -- one, press resistance. Two, put Reyna in a position he does not need to run as much after playing 75 a few days before when they had expected 45. And lastly, put McKennie's defense up further forward where he could create some chaos (and keep his turnover prone aspects away from goal).

    We'll never know how the counter situation would have gone so we can't really know if it was the better call. It's also very possible that he was intended to get up further but either didn't or the situation didn't allow once Reyna was on the field.

    But I think this decision was very situation dependent, between fatigue and opponent. Which annoys me more about Marsch, because he's paid to see these things, not stump for a job.
     
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  11. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    If our defensive shape calls for Reyna to be positioned further up the field that's actually a bigger ask in terms of energy expended. He has to help cover both the CBs and the defensive mids.

    Dropping back deeper in the double pivot (especially next to someone like Adams) just asks him to take up a good defensive position. It is a deeper position but he does not have to play as aggressively or expend as much energy.

    The question of course is always what is the best way to play for the entire team rather than a particular player. I think the early results of playing him deeper are promising but it will take a bit longer to figure out how best to use him against different kinds of teams and in different game situations.
     
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  12. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    With RAM midfield the situation dictates where the players move to. Adams will be deepest except for occasional offensive and defensive forays. Reyna and McKennie are pulleys and would be mostly keyed by Reyna's reading the situation. The last time he played he came deep a lot but not so much that everyone called him a dual 6 Pirlo. This game may have been instruction or feel and it was necessary to play that way but I doubt that written in stone. I like it when the midfield is more fluid and when Musah was playing Adams spot with McKennie and Reyna he went forward more. One of the kids at all times needs to be ready to help Adams (or whoever at that moment is deepest) but offensively having all three move around and change tactics is more confusing to defend.
     
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  13. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    LA Galaxy
    United States
    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Berhalter will use JAR when everybody is healthy because their particular skills combine really well.

    I'll just keep repeating. Musah should accept the holding role (6) and train up for the 8 he prefers while playing the 6.
     
  14. porkrind

    porkrind Member+

    Quakes
    United States
    Sep 27, 2001
    Bostonia
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    So... Reyna is our Jamie Tartt?

    (Sorry couldn't resist :D)
     
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  15. rgli13

    rgli13 Member+

    Mar 23, 2005
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i dont know where to find this stat- or if it would bear this out- but i would bet imaginary internet money he covered more ground vs mexico.
     
  16. deejay

    deejay Member+

    Feb 14, 2000
    Tarpon Springs, FL
    Club:
    Jorge Wilstermann
    Nat'l Team:
    Bolivia
    We've seen Reyna play midfield and drop down deep to distribute in other games. I think, though, that he and Gregg made the choice to stay deeper in this game and it looked quite good.
     
  17. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    an ugly ugly boy?
     
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  18. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It’s also just something Musah also often does when he’s playing there in terms of dropping deep and being good and carrying the ball forward out of the press.
     
  19. gomichigan24

    gomichigan24 Member+

    Jul 15, 2002
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It’s true for now for sure, but I feel like that backup attacking midfield role has a lot of potential competition from guys like Paxton Aaronson, Luna, Gutierrez, Booth, Cremaschi and maybe eventually Cavan Sullivan.

    I don’t think any of those players are better than Tillman today and some like Booth may be better suited to a different position, but he’s definitely going to have plenty of competition for that spot.
     
  20. tefftlon

    tefftlon Member

    Real Madrid
    United States
    Jan 11, 2023
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is probably a lot of the reasoning.

    For as much as most of us will agree Berhalter needs to do something to help get the attack going more consistently, defensively we’ve been solid. Sure, the Dutch found a weakness and exploited it, but otherwise it’s been solid. Mexico barely got anything going in attack.
     
  21. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    For the first statement, they are clearly related. Gameplans are trade-offs in most cases. There's no gameplan that is simply good at everything unless your team is just good at everything.

    As for the Netherlands match, I know people like to say the Dutch found a weakness, but they merely attacked the flanks. Which is what most teams do against us, because our midfield is crazy good and our fullbacks press up. It wasn't a stroke of genius and Van Gaal said as much -- his statements were not what people like to say when listened in full. The gameplan is obvious. Not to say there wasn't some subtlety that none of us could tell or whatever, but it wasn't some magic unlock.

    The reason why they scored was that they are a strong passing team who executed well and we didn't. There's nothing they did tactically that Tata's teams didn't do; they were just better and we were worse.
     
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  22. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    I think that we're overvaluing Tillman vis-a-vis LDLT right now. If I'm going into a tournament and I can take only one, it's LDLT, and Tillman's one of the good players being left behind.

    I MIGHT take Tillman over one of the backup wingers, but right now I'd probably take a guy like Sargent, if healthy, or Wright, to play backup winger/2nd forward as a sub-on instead of Tillman, so in that case that we'd have one extra forward in place of an extra midfielder.

    In short, I think that he's the guy in the pool that we're probably overvaluing the most right now. Which is not to say that I'm closing the book on him, but I do think he's surplus.
     
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  23. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Don't forget that two of the tree goals were scored because two of our better defenders made uncharacteristic mistakes that seem to be related to being mentally exhausted. I mean when does Adams do that? When does Jedi not move even when his keeper is screaming at him. Added depth should help alleviate that and then a team will have to have better players 1-17 which unfortunately some do.
     
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  24. onefineesq

    onefineesq Member+

    Sep 16, 2003
    Laurel, MD
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wouldn't. To me, LDLT is another #8 type player. He is not a primary attacking type player. He is not a real 6. So, in a squad, you could conceivably have Johnny backing up Adams. Who is LDLT backing up? Reyna? Nope. He has never delivered offensive numbers anywhere (he has something like 6 or 7 goals in 160 or so games for club and country if I remember correctly). Backup McKennie? That would be Musah? LDLT is a poor man's Musah in my estimation. So we take LDLT as a backup to the backup? Taking Tillman gives you more options from where I sit, if everyone is healthy. Injuries of course could change things.
     
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  25. Marko72

    Marko72 Member+

    Aug 30, 2005
    New York
    LDLT is a better midfielder and a couple of our center forwards are better on the wings that Tillman. Tillman's the expendable one, IMO.
     

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