Injuries aside, was Peak Neymar better than any non-Messi player this era?

I also don't think the decrease in carries is purely a reflection of declining physical attributes so much as tactical adaptation / maximizing efficacy for the team. Cristiano was not as good in the box earlier in his career - he naturally started from the left and deeper positions. He did not play back to goal, and did not shoulder centerbacks. Over time, Madrid became less direct as a team and Cristiano became a much stronger player in the zone and that skillset suited the capabilities of the team best. We saw how he reverted a bit to his older playstyle at times with Juve. But the difference is due to a positional / role change. And the team did better as evidenced with the CLs that he accumulated. At the end of the day, guys making rudimentary judgments based on a statsheet are not interest in football - that's how I see it. I see someone tell me Neymar is a better player than such and such because of "progressive carries" and "
p90" and I can't help but laugh.

 

PREMIER LEAGUE 2007-08

Most…

Appearances – 12 players – 38
Substitution on – Marlon Harewood, Shane Long – 22
Substitution off – Elano – 23
Passes in own half – Rio Ferdinand – 912
Passes in opposition half – Francesc Fabregas – 1690
Dribbles attempted – Cristiano Ronaldo – 191
Clearances – Martin Laursen – 739
Blocks – Richard Dunne – 37
Interceptions – Gaël Clichy – 136
Fouls conceded – John Carew – 100
Fouls won – David Bentley – 90

Fouls won per game

Mikel Arteta 3.04
Alan Hutton 3.00
Kevin Davies 2.59
Cristiano Ronaldo 2.59
David Bentley 2.43

Shots per game

Cristiano Ronaldo 3.85
Wayne Rooney 3.15
Fernando Torres 2.91
Emmanuel Adebayor 2.89
Steven Gerrard 2.62

Goals scored per game

Cristiano Ronaldo 0.91
Fernando Torres 0.73
Emmanuel Adebayor 0.67
Nicolas Anelka 0.56
Benjamin Mwaruwari 0.52

Minutes per foul won

Mikel Arteta 28.8
Alan Hutton 28.9
Cristiano Ronaldo 31.2
Kevin Davies 31.9
Luis Boa Morte 33.1

Minutes per shot

Cristiano Ronaldo 21.0
Wayne Rooney 25.7
Fernando Torres 26.5
Dean Ashton 27.7
Emmanuel Adebayor 28.2

Minutes per goal scored

Cristiano Ronaldo 88.6
Fernando Torres 105.9
Emmanuel Adebayor 122.2
Yakubu 144.4
Benjamin Mwaruwari 153.3

Percentage of goals involved in

Cristiano Ronaldo 47%
Roque Santa Cruz 47%
Fernando Torres 42%
Elano 39%
Emmanuel Adebayor 37%

Total shots attempted

Ronaldo 131
Adebayor 104
Torres 96
Gerrard 89
Rooney 85

 

Yes, the best player in the world from now on should be determined on "expected threat", "expected on ball value" and what not. What an absolute clownshow this has become.

 

Well, you yourself said "My idea of quality is to look at the end result. That is the only way to truly be objective". And the data I provided proves that Ronaldo's ending results were above Neymar's very best. Again, even going further in the CL and facing prime Barcelona and Atleti on the league which should drop off his averages since is harder to score/assist against tougher opponents

I mean, the "Dribbling, dribbling success rate, touches" by Neymar aren't leading to any more goals nor nothing tangible to change an outcome. Ronaldo just have another strengths that aren't statistically measured

I think you should change the title of this thread to "was Neymar the most like Messi player of this generation?" And then I would of course agree. He is very similar to Messi in his style of play although he is nowhere near the goalscorer that Messi was in his prime. But in terms of ball progression, final ball playmaking and dribbling he is the closest player to Messi in that era. Although Messi is better in close control and Neymar is better in terms of variety and plasticity in dribbling. But anyway in their very best, they were equally effective in quality (conversion rate) and quantity (successful dribbles)

 

This is ridiculous. You need a proof of Neymar carrying and dribbling more than Ronaldo 2014-2016 !?!?

How about I link you 20 highlights of games in which Ronaldo does nothing but stands in the front line and shots? 30?

I would understand asking for quantifying just how much better is he, but to not agree with the self evident statement.

And it is your claim. That Neymar is not close to Ronaldo and Messi in those periods and provided a half assed analysis of goals and assists as a proxy for performance completely ignoring obvious, well known fact that neymar is one of the most active players with the ball and a lot of value he brings he brings through other means such us progression.

That is self evident. To now say a word about that in your claim is dishonest and you need to provide data for that

 

conversation explicitly compared 2014-16 Ronaldo with 2018-2020 Neymar.

Why are you always off topic?

And we've been over this:

Ronaldo with elite G/A, not much else at an elite level

Ronaldo with a lof of overall play, not elite G/A

2008 and 2010 are somewhat crossover years. That 2010 is the only season in which one can argue he had both at an elite level, but that is not what we are talking about here.

 

2007/08 is not somewhat

It IS

Only 3 players between 1990-2009 scored 40+ goals in all competitions while playing for a team in Europe’s top 5 leagues

Ronaldo nazario 1996/97

Ruud Van nistelrooy 2002/03

Cristiano Ronaldo 2007/08

Because you don’t know shit about football before 2010 you end up just saying random shit

Nobody at that time was doing what he was doing


Scoring 40+ goals in all competitions back then was an extreme rarity and for you to come here as some random guy in 2023 talking about “its questionably a season with elite scoring+no scoring end product” is just hilarious

 

How many dribbles and runs and progressive plays he had in 2008 compared to the best in those categories at the time?

I literally said he was.

Used the word somewhat because his goalscoring is bellow the level he would reach later on and I dont now his advanced stats in 2008 while it is pretty clear for Ronaldo 2010 as youve literally said that yourself.

You clearly agree with my words on everything i said in the last few comments yet you are picking fights for no other reason than because you percieve me as someone who doesnt respect Cristiano enough based on your own criteria.

I literally said nothing you disagree with here. I know that for a fact and Ive praised Cristiano highly on so many ocassions yet you still engage in this tribal argumentation. Why do you keep doing this.

You have an unhealthy obsession with Cristiano

 

So, how exactly we can objectively quantify how many goals Neymar's dribbling and ball progressing are leading to? When his dribble doesn't lead to a goal or assist, it's most likely a turnover at the end. There isn't just one right way to play the game. Ronaldo simply plays differently. He brings other dimensions to the table. He dominates his wing, makes penetrating runs through the box, shots difficult shots, plays in beautiful crosses, he is an aerial threat, he have his left foot to shot, pass or dribble, his work ethic and leadership inspire his teammates and brings the better of them, his record in high pressure situations is elite, etc... And he is getting better ending results

 

I wish every player had as good of a videomakers as Cristiano (and Messi). There are literally dozens of talented editors going through every Cristiano Ronaldo match and pulling out every good piece of play he made and he played a looot of games in that timeframe.

You can't get the sense of how much he was invovled watching youtube compilations. You just can't.

Also do you realize that youve said that Messi and Ronaldo wipe the floor with Neymar in terms of goals and assists on per 90 basis and then pulled out statistics in which there is a bigger difference between Messi and Ronaldo than Ronaldo and Neymar not to say that you are making it seem like Neymar's numbers are laughable.

 

his posting is insufferably low quality. He should stick to Messi highlights, I encouraged him on his project which was a way of finally making him useful.

For me fyi, it is his most impressive goalscoring season. Tougher, competitive league. Low volume shooting (3 shots per game). It is his most impressive imo when the context is analyzed.

 

...
Or maybe you're just wrong. Ever considered that most people are right about Ronaldo? You need to stop torturing yourself.

 

Wrong about what?

That 2018-20 Neymar contributed more to the game excluding goals and assists than 2014-16 Ronaldo?

I am on the record saying that Ronaldo is possibly as high as number 3 in history of football, something many are reluctant to do on this forum.

Your feelings are clouding your judgement. You see things that are not there.

 

Can´t believe Neymar just missed the Pen that would have broken the pele record........

 

Do you think those goals and assist just materialize? Did you think your analysis is of any value excluding the single most important and valuable actions in a football match? Don't make me laugh. The only feeling I have is pity.

 

Neymar almost just scored the goal of the year.. https://t.co/weRIywmCkH

— J. 🇵🇸 (@Messilizer) September 9, 2023

 

🌟RECORD BREAKER:

Neymar has just scored his 78th goal for the Seleção, beating Pelé’s previous record of 77!

He is now the isolated top scorer in the history of the Seleção.

H I S T O R Y ! 🇧🇷 pic.twitter.com/q05LrAUwTw

— Ginga Bonito 🇧🇷 (@GingaBonitoHub) September 9, 2023

 

There is something about Neymar and Bolivia but it seems everytime they meet there are casualties

The time before he completed 18 dribbles in one match

🚨 | A new record!

Neymar successfully completed a jaw-dropping 18/23 dribbles in Brazil's overnight 5:0 win vs Bolivia in a World Cup qualifier, setting a new single-match record in our entire database! 🤯

It was an incredible display of skill by the Brazilian star! 💨 https://t.co/7T5kfZvPM2 pic.twitter.com/mvTAGLdkh1

— Sofascore (@SofascoreINT) October 10, 2020

 

Absolutely underrated. Magician!!

 

Wait WHATTTTTT????!!!!!!!! HOW????!!!!!!!!

@Trachta10 @carlito86 @Isaías Silva Serafim

Pelé - 95 gols
Neymar - 78 gols

Os maiores artilheiros da #SeleçãoBrasileira. SANTOS! 🇧🇷⚪️⚫️ pic.twitter.com/oaNU3ZhVfF

— Santos FC (@SantosFC) September 9, 2023