You haven't presented any examples Edhardy that can be scrutinised or data that can be fact checked Which games are you watching wherein van basten displayed a higher level of playmaking What assists or chances created do you have in mind? How is it possible for you to even say van basten was a consistently less flawed passer than CR when you haven't seen 30 complete games of him(or maybe you have but haven't referenced any beyond the few available on YouTube which leads me to believe you haven't) Anybody can cherry pick random games Games where he scores decisive winners and games he doesn't Cristiano Ronaldo: The Madrid man scored from 1 of 10 shots, completed 7 dribbles and 100% of his 50 passes vs Manchester City tonight— WhoScored.com (@WhoScored) September 18, 2012 Cristiano Ronaldo vs Atlético Madrid:95% pass accuracy88% dribble accuracy72 touches39 passes completed11 duels won7 dribbles completed3 free kicks won2 clearances2 aerials wonThe best player for Juventus, however, unable to get an away goal. pic.twitter.com/UE0mB7ET3n— UtdArena (@UtdArena) February 20, 2019 If you go 10 years further back than this there are multiple 10+ dribble matches in the champions league(Roma/benfica 2006/07,dinamo bukharest 04/05 are the famous ones) It's futile arguing against C. Ronaldo being more creative than van basten The data is overwhelmingly in favour of Ronaldo I'm telling you for a fact that Cristiano Ronaldo created the 2nd most chances per 90 in la liga 2009/10 behind only prime Xavi Hernandez #TBT most key passes in La Liga 2009/10:Xavi (109)Duda (84)Pedro León (81)Cristiano Ronaldo (75)Juan Mata / Luis García (73) pic.twitter.com/WzmLSmxll0— WhoScored.com (@WhoScored) January 19, 2017 https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/duda/leistungsdaten/spieler/7782/saison/2009/plus/0 https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/ped...ails/spieler/51587/saison/2009/wettbewerb/ES1 Despite the fact Cristiano played only 2465 minutes(only 27 games out of a 38 game season) He was on course IMO for a 30+ league goal season,100 chances created in the league without the injuries and disciplinary issues In that league were Messi,iniesta,Juan Mata,dani alves,David Silva,Kaka,Guti etc World class creative players Just look at it That's like van basten 88/89 in serie A competing against aldo Serena,voller,careca etc in goalscoring Against Roberto baggio,micheal laudrup and Maradona in dribbling And against Roberto mancini,Maradona,laudrup,Gullit in chances created Maybe in some different universe this happened Not in reality At his most complete during 2009/10(not necessarily best) He had the 3rd highest goals per 90 avg in la liga behind gonzalo higuain and Messi The 2nd highest chances created per 90 Avg behind xavi Hernandez The 2nd highest dribbles per game avg behind Lionel Messi All the while being the most prolific ball carrier in the league(source micheal caley) and most fouled player in the league Van basten was defintely not at any stage of his career taking more punishment than Ronaldo in 2009/10 Im 110% certain of this That tougher defences BS flies out of the window Even in friendlies he was targeted for special treatment This was ironically in the pre season ' PEACE cup '
I don't even know how useful key passes are in determining who a better passer is. Certainly key passes in themselves - chances created, big chances created, through balls per 90, long balls per 90, final third passes and other metrics can paint a more complete picture if you're intent on going the stats route only. Without looking at those, some of the better passers than Ronaldo that had less key passes than him in La Liga that year include Kaka, Rafa van der Vaart, Guti, Xabi Alonso (Real Madrid only); Messi, Iniesta, Yaya Toure, Busquets; David Silva, Santi Cazorla, Ever Banega... arguably Dani Alves, Zlatan Ibrahimovic. Key passes are not the same as chances created, and they tell nothing of the difficulty of the pass either. It is just a pass that results in a shot at goal - several Madrid players had more successful through balls p/90 that season for example. Basically, they can't tell us much about a player's creativity, lest we conclude that Duda > Guti. Which is mental! It gets even more difficult when you try to compare it against a player 20 years prior, in a league so different (late 80s-early 90s Serie A and 10s La Liga are on opposite ends of the football scale in so many ways), against a player for whom we don't have these statistics either. On film, Van Basten looks closer to Ibrahimovic/Kane as a passing/ball playing centre forward and Ronaldo isn't in these guys league. He isn't terribly worse than them, but he also isn't in their league. Showing videos of a player being a "consistently less flawed" passer is obviously tedious as we'll be looking for examples of them being flawed, in clips that are made to probably portray them favourably, but I posted a few that show how Van Basten uses the ball, while he is no KDB, he is IMO a more aggressive passer (more forward oriented), and less likely to lose a ball when progressing the play.
I don't know who took more punishment per se, maybe it's a case of "quality over quantity" but MvB literally had to halt his career due to "punishment"
Agree to disagree but even the most biased Milan/Ajax/Netherlands inclined supporter could never seriously say van basten was even remotely as aggressive as C.Ronaldo neither as a ball carrier,dribbler or chance creator C.Ronaldo in La liga 2009/10 was 3rd top scorer in the league,2nd most prolific dribbler,2nd most effective chance creator,most fouled player and the best ball carrier at the exact same time The form he showed in the 2nd half of 2009/10 was on par with the best ever level of Lionel Messi The data is here for you to look at but in those last 17-18 league games He had 18 goals+9 wide assists https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/cri...sdaten/spieler/8198/saison/2009/wettbewerb/CL 3.5 dribbles per 90 2.6-2.75 Key pass per 90 40~ successful passes per game Untold yards clocked doing ball carrying and off the ball runs Michael Caley compiles stats using the distance between on-ball events to see which players move around the field the most with the ball. to see which players move around the field the most with the ball. In Ronaldo’s first season in La Liga, he covered 385 yards with the ball at his feet per 90 minutes. When he came to Spain, nobody ran with the ball more than Ronaldo. In 2009, he averaged 136 yards per 90 minutes in the middle; that was fourth most in the league, and he was the only non-Barcelona player in the top seven. I don't know what film you are watching but i want to watch it too
One of his best from that 2nd half of the campaign Here he is playing on the Left flank,right flank,playmaking through the middle,solo goals,header, dangerous shots from outside of the box,,ball carrying and even dangerous FK attempts etc Playing like a man 'possessed' a la Maradona vs Belgium 1986(not an exaggeration in the slightest) You can see why many view him to be the most devastating athlete in the history of the sport For my money this was one of his most impressive league displays( ever) Fulfilling all attacking functions of the game to a high degree Van basten in his 3 ballon dor wins was never this all encompassing level player Not even close But sure we can agree to disagree
Exactly, and typically, unlike say Cameroon in 1990, it didn't receive cards either... Since then it has been establishment taller players had been more likely to have fouls called against them, and less likely to get them in their favor.
You can also see it when he made his debut (and he was fit with a good ankle) here from one minute onward. And here in 1989 at the end of the video. On my channels are also the Barcelona games from 1989, but of course, some - the downchoppers - don't watch it and pretend it didn't happen. There is actually one sort of De Bruyne/Ziyech esque pass in the 1992 Denmark game that Gullit narrowly misses to convert (from the outside cutting in, swinging the ball low into the box with pace) and as you say, even until the very end (examples there) he had it. Unfortunately but understandably given the demographics (and indirectly through media at play), he is sold a bit short on youtube videos. Admittedly though, the quality and reliability could vary a bit depending on how his ankle felt.
Marco van Basten 🇳🇱 by @CompsACM. https://t.co/dB3wtGL8Mj— 90s Football (@90sfootball) October 30, 2020
🗣️ Paolo Maldini: "He was the best. The way he played was timeless."🇳🇱 Marco van Basten is 56 today! 🥳#UCL | #HBD pic.twitter.com/6ZYbxUQoO3— UEFA Champions League (@ChampionsLeague) October 31, 2020
This is (very impressive)highlights albiet from his entire Milan career crammed into 2 minutes 19 seconds(the twitter limit) His best ever goals in the European cup/champions league Serie A Coppa Italia And other cups 17372 minutes played(193 matches) C.Ronaldo 2009/10 played 2915 minutes(32 matches) and scored more solo dribbling goals and FKs than van basten did in his entire Milan career More open play goals scored ,More dribbles runs,More solo goals,More direct Freekicks,More penalties won,More chances created,More ball carrying than any single season of van basten at Milan No one in their right mind could ever deny this You'd have to cherry pick van bastens best moments from 20,000 minutes(200+games) worth of football to create a player who looks like CR 09/10 Merging bits of skill,flair and goals from a near 6-7 year period These are just the goals Even the goal attempts of CR 09/10 were legitimately as good if not better than van bastens best goals at Milan In this guise his range of influence and threat encompassed the entire opposition half Van basten at Milan was deadly 20 yards from goal This is one of his ballon dor years 1991/92(his most prolific in Serie A in goals+assists) Aged 27-28 https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-best-players-of-the-season-1991-2.2009869/page-2 This is C.Ronaldo 2009/10 24-25 years old and how a ATG looks https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2.../3218/PlayerStatistics/Spain-LaLiga-2009-2010 https://www.goal.com/en/news/2939/c...the-best-of-2009-10-league-by-league-position Sky high scores across all media rating agencies and advanced analytics Mind you this 22 year old version of Messi he was competing against was better than any version of any player that ever played in Serie A history https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/premature-speculation-just-how-good-is-lionel-messi.1392836/page-1 And according to Dbs calcio,whoscored and Castrol was challenging him neck to neck In goals and all round play And if it's wasn't for the 6 week injury and 2 red cards the rating would be even higher as this Marcel desailly “It sums up the quality of Lionel Messi that he finishes the season ahead of Cristiano Ronaldo in the Castrol Rankings because Ronaldo has been exceptional in his first year at Real Madrid.”
As others have also said: the highlights leave out some of the best bits including passing and link-up play. To suggest in the first sentence otherwise is, once again, wrong. I have put you, the fake news machine, on ignore now and will adhere to it from now on.
Talking about effortless technical brilliance being executed You best believe if this was converted it would make the highlight of someone as technically renowned as Diego Armando Maradona Judging by many of the comments here I'm not sure people are too well informed Prime CR was so virtuoso with FAR greater ball Handling and dribbling skills than van basten This is beyond doubt After that we can talk about how the end product is demonstrably superior And how your/many peoples perception of him as a player is directly affected by his exploits coinciding with Messis Scoring 46 league goals in 2011/2012 and still losing the european golden boot Can you even imagine what kind of level this? And you compare this to van basten struggling against Serena and co in Serie A More on that later From 2007 to 2012 he has 4 league seasons rated well above 7 by DBS calico Playing in England and Spain the top rated leagues of his era 2006/07 in England(aged 21-22) 20+ goals+20+ wide assists in a comps as a midfielder 4 dribbles per 90 in the EPL https://www.redcafe.net/threads/cristiano-ronaldo-top-dog.141376/ 4.4 dribbles per 90 in the CL 3 consecutive seasons in Spain rated by media well above 7 2009/10 2010/11 2011/12 Alexis Sanchez 11/12 played only 1658 league minutes(18~matches)with many sub appearances when the game was already beyond reach etc Overall Messi 10-12 averaged grades between 7.30-7.60 as per Dbs calcio C.Ronaldo 10-12 averaged grades between 7.20-7.40 And prime Andres Iniesta 09-12 around 7.0 Now compare van bastens average grades in Serie A between 88-92 How did he fair against the likes of Maradona,gullit,baggio and co Just out of curiosity for anyone who is able to answer which season did van basten even have on par with Ronaldo 2007/08 31 league goals in 2747 minutes(30.5 games) Still remains the highest Goals per 90 rate for any golden boot winner in EPL history https://statsbomb.com/2013/07/forwards-the-top-10-individual-seasons-2008-2013/ Still(10+ years later) And he wasn't even a striker I C O N I C2007/08 @Cristiano 2017/18 @MoSalah pic.twitter.com/cDcgawvYrr— Premier League USA (@PLinUSA) June 4, 2018 1.01 goals per 90 2.95 dribbles per 90 36.9 passes per 90 0.95 tackles per 90 A complete attacker https://www.premierleague.com/players/2522/Cristiano-Ronaldo/stats?co=1&se=16 Just one of many legendary seasons he had between 2007-2012 Also MVP and top scorer in the 2008 champion's league Was the best player in the final against Chelsea(scored and was marvelous) 8 - Only two players have completed 8+ dribbles in a single Champions League final prior to 2010: Barcelona's Ronaldinho (10) vs Arsenal (2006) and Manchester United's Cristiano Ronaldo (8) vs Chelsea (2008). Success. pic.twitter.com/CmTLNBaojS— OptaJose (@OptaJose) March 26, 2020 That's at 22-23 years old When van basten was CL top scorer he was outscored by aldo Serena in Serie A Van basten either top scored in the league(1991/92) or top scored in the European cup (1988/89) or top scored in the Euros(1988-but was practically injured for the whole 87/88 campaign) Never at the same time There is no dominant campaign For reference He doesn't have a dominant season like Eusebio 67/68(European golden shoe+CL top scorer) Let alone Eusebio 65/66 (league top scorer+Euro championship top scorer+European cup top scorer) For whatever reason even at his best 88-92 he wasn't a uber consistent player in the vein of a C.Ronaldo/Messi/Muller/eusebio or before them Pele and Puskas in their respective primes Van basten 88/89 was outscored By aldo Serena in Serie A Even careca 88/89 had a higher goals per 90 rate Van basten 19 goals in 2919 minutes https://www.transfermarkt.com/marco...erein=5&liga=&wettbewerb=IT1&pos=&trainer_id= Careca 19 league goals in 2595 minutes https://www.transfermarkt.bg/careca/leistungsdaten/spieler/117626/saison/1988/wettbewerb/CIT Not only that but van basten scored 4 penalties and careca only 1 yet he STILL had an inferior goals per 90 rate But "van basten is a player with unmatched finishing technique" Really? In 89/90 he top scored but had less open play goals than rudi voller In 1991/92 he top scored with 25 league goals(9 penalties) All of his open play league goals that season were extremely basic In fact Serie A 91/92 was such a difficult league to score in that Francesco baiano 91/92 (with only 2 caps for the Italian NT) scored 13 open play goals in Serie A Playing for freaking foggia https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcio_Foggia_1920_S.S.D. Van basten faced relatively modest competition from other strikers in Serie A 88-92 Voller,careca,Serena these are good-very good players World class even but let's not kid ourselves they are not the crème de la crème of their generation How did van basten struggle to consistently demonstrate his scoring superiority against these level players Why is 'Supreme world class' van basten 91/92 only worth 3 more open play goals than Francesco baiano in Serie A?
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2007/feb/25/match.sport 88th minute Best prime level player in English football history In the same match there was also a mazy dribbling run from the half way line where he went past 3 players 1:06 Various other incisive and threatening actions throughout Arguabky One of his top 3 individual performances that season alongside Roma home in the CL(2 goals+1 assist+2 pre assists)and bolton home in the EPL(3 assists)
His first 3 seasons at real Madrid Age 24-27 years old 146 goals+44 wide assists in 12435 minutes(138 matches) 1.38 goals per 90 Team goals 396 team goals 47% direct involvement Complete forward(his real peak) 2012/13+2013/14 and 2014/15 Age 28-30 Stats 167 goals+53 wide assists in 13301 minutes(148 matches) 1.49 goals+assists per 90 over 3 consecutive seasons Team goals 409 Goal+assist involvement by player 53% direct involvement For reference Messi 2010/11+ 2011/12 and 2012/13 the best 3 consecutive season peak of the last 50 years scored 183 goals+73 wide assists in 13870 minutes(154 matches) Team goals 441 goals 58% direct involvement 1.66 goals+ assists per 90 over 3 consecutive seasons+58% direct involvement This is the GOAT standard For reference Van basten at Ajax (his peak goalscoring production by FAR and probably even his peak as a player ) 3 consecutive season peak 1984/85 + 1985/86 + 1986/87 = 110 goals+ 40 wide assists in 9924 minutes(110 matches) 1.36 goals+ assists per 90 Team goals: 345 Goal+assist involvement by van basten 43% If we take 1988/89 as a 1 year peak for van basten(his best year at AC Milan arguably) He scored 33 goals+13 wide assists Milan scored 86 goals in all competitions winning the league+EC 53% direct involvement by van basten C.Ronaldo did van basten 1989 not once Not twice Not 3 times Maybe 6-7 times in his career Maybe even 8 if we include 2007/08 Tbh I highly doubt under the modern microscope any of his Milan seasons would've been considered objectively or statistically superior to CR 17/18 2nd highest rated player in la liga behind peak Messi https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...15375/PlayerStatistics/Spain-LaLiga-2017-2018 Best CL performer(2 goals against a very strong Tottenham,3 against PSG,3 including 1 iconic goal against Juventus,a golazo against Dortmund) https://www.whoscored.com/Articles/...ournament-Top-scorer-Ronaldo-leads-the-attack And these are just the stats Van basten even in his Milan prime( age 24-27)was never attempting let alone doing what Ronaldo 17/18 was doing at 33 years old(great passing, filthy elasticos,dribbling runs from midfield) https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IbuXQ3gxZzk https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq9OE5uKhQs https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RDCgYrMg7h0 Van basten is arguably the best striker of the last 30 years But that's it He's in the conversation Romario is there,so is R9,so is prime Thierry Henry,so is ibrahimovic(his longevity playing top level football and he is 12-13 years older than when van basten last kicked a ball professionally) People can have strong opinions one way or the other But prime for prime it is a disservice pitting van basten against a 'terminator' player who seldomly got injured,made Hattricks go out of fashion and won 5 ballon dors in the era of Messi
The art of the pre assist 2004-2013 Will give 3 examples per category Vision 3:45 0:30 Ball carrying/dribbling 4:46 6:50 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D9v1vOxftpA 5:43 Tika taka/teamplay https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2QOHDXvc5x0 0:18 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lxIryrUkC2o 15:22 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QqpGZOEc-DU&t=622s 9:49
With all due respect, I think your argument is reductive and ultimately incorrect; I mean, you are assuming that R9 and Van Basten played for superclubs that could routinely destroy most of the league clubs, as was Cristiano Ronaldo's unprecedented privilege; not only a team that "farmed statistics" exclusively for Cristiano Ronaldo (which Inter Milan never did for R9; which AC Milan never did for Van Basten), but a superclub that could score goals at an unprecedented rate, with or without Ronaldo. Note: With regards to the analysis below, free kick goals will be ignored, as the intention is to determine the goal scoring form of a striker versus a striker, which means that free kick goals would detract from the fact that finishers are not always nor exclusively the primary free kick takers in their respective clubs; then again, Ronaldo in his time as the poacher-type player he became after 2015, that version of Ronaldo has never been a good free kick specialist, which is all the more reason to simply ignore free kick goals in the analysis below. Penalty kick goals will also be ignored for the same reason. And lastly, the concept of "competitive margin games" simply means games that were won by less than 3 goals of difference; and of course that means that "blow out margin games" are any victories won by 3 or more goals of difference. Cristiano Ronaldo 2012/13 La Liga vs. Marco Van Basten 1988/89 Serie A. Real Madrid's Statistical Farming System vs. AC Milan's Traditional System. Competitive Margin Games: Ronaldo 11 open play goals / 26 games Real Madrid 47 goals in total / 26 games Real Madrid scoreless games / 4 games Van Basten 9 open play goals / 26 games AC Milan 30 goals in total / 26 games AC Milan scoreless games / 9 games Note: Cristiano Ronaldo played only 22 competitive margin games in La Liga 2012/13, which is why I added the last 4 competitive margin games of La Liga 2011/12, to complete the 26 games, which is the exact number of competitive margin games by Van Basten in the Serie A 1988/89. Conclusion: Real Madrid scored 17 more goals than AC Milan, but then Ronaldo only scored 2 more goals than Van Basten. And AC Milan scored no goals in 9 games, but then Real Madrid scored no goals only in 4 games, which is less than half the percentage of AC Milan's total. Ronaldo playing for a far better scoring team, was only good enough to score 2 more goals than Van Basten. Blow Out Margin Games: Ronaldo 16 open play goals / 12 games Real Madrid 54 goals in total / 12 games Van Basten 6 open play goals / 6 games AC Milan 25 goals in total / 6 games Conclusion: Ronaldo literally scores more goals than he plays games, which is arguably unprecedented in modern times, if not counting Messi; but then again, only Ronaldo and Messi have enjoyed this unprecedented advantage in league football; which makes this a largely empty premise to begin with? I mean, looking at Zlatan Ibrahimovic's statistics, there is every sign and indication that he would score goals in the Cristiano Ronaldo range; it just so happens that Inter Milan in the Serie A was not getting 12 blow out margin games per season; same for AC Milan. Meanwhile, Van Basten scores one goal per game, but then he only enjoys 6 of these blow out margin games per season, even in the best of times. I mean, isn't it the complex mystery that Cristiano Ronaldo the apparent GOAT of goal scorers, is significantly better than Van Basten but not because he plays/enjoys literally double the quantity of blow-out-win type games to help him inflate his goal tally season after season? At any rate, Ronaldo scored 10 more goals than Van Basten, but then Real Madrid scored 29 more goals than AC Milan, which is literally more goals than the actual quantity of goals scored by AC Milan. Real Madrid scores a lot more goals than AC Milan (literally more than double the amount), and Ronaldo offers no actual improvement over Van Basten; and again, Van Basten offers equal end product in terms of goal scoring form, but Van Basten can do it without Ronaldo's monopoly on the distribution of service, that is, without the necessity of having AC Milan aiming 60% or more of their total service exclusively at Van Basten as the farmer-in-chief. Ronaldo 16 open play goals / 12 games Real Madrid 54 goals in total / 12 games Van Basten 13 open play goals / 12 games AC Milan 55 goals in total / 12 games Note: In order to complete the 12 games, I added the 6 blow out margin games that Van Basten played in season 1991/92, his last season in top form; the end result is that, as was easy to predict, Van Basten offers roughly equal or better end product to Cristiano Ronaldo, that is, relative to the service percentage actually aimed at Van Basten, and despite the fact that Van Basten's ankle injury is only getting worse with the passing of time. It is not an accident nor a coincidence that AC Milan literally scores more goals than Real Madrid, even when Cristiano Ronaldo scores 3 more goals than Van Basten... This is the result of Real Madrid aiming 60% or more of their total service at Ronaldo, which is the reason for why Real Madrid (a better scoring team) scores less goals than AC Milan. On the contrary, AC Milan with their traditional service distribution had Van Basten score 3 less goals than Ronaldo, but Van Basten scored his 13 goals having received far less service percentage/quantity than Ronaldo... which is why AC Milan scores more goals when given the chance to play 12 blow out margin games. Ronaldo 16 open play goals / 12 games Real Madrid 54 goals in total / 12 games Van Basten 10 open play goals / 12 games AC Milan 45 goals in total / 12 games Note: In order to complete the 12 games, I added the only 4 blow out margin games that Van Basten played in season 1989/90, and then also added another 2 blow out margin games from season 1990/91, and Van Basten offers roughly equal (relative to the service percentage actually aimed at Van Basten) end product to Cristiano Ronaldo, despite the fact that Van Basten's ankle injury is only getting worse with the passing of time. Real Madrid 2012/13 Service Distribution Competitive Margin Games: 7 assists for Ronaldo 6 assists for Benzema 5 assists for Higuain 7 out of 18 assists for Ronaldo Ronaldo received 38.9 percent of the total service Conclusion: Real Madrid doesn't relentlessly aim an excessive percentage of the service exclusively at Ronaldo, because in difficult games the priority is to win the 3 points, rather than inflate Ronaldo's arguments for the impending Ballon d'Or rivalry vs. Messi. Real Madrid 2012/13 Service Distribution Blow Out Margin Games: 15 assists for Ronaldo 7 assists for Higuain 3 assists for Benzema 15 out of 25 assists for Ronaldo Ronaldo received 60 percent of the total service Conclusion: Real Madrid relentlessly aims 60% of the total service at Ronaldo, because Ronaldo does not celebrate goals not scored by Ronaldo, and because Ronaldo knows that that is precisely the only way that he can compete "on paper" against Lionel Messi, a player who does not need statistical farming in order to score at his career-long rate. Real Madrid's significant-but-not-deliberate tactical change, from apparently aiming less than 40% of the total service at Ronaldo, to aiming literally 60% of the total service at Ronaldo... is not an accident nor a coincidence, and repeats itself in all of the years that Real Madrid failed to win La Liga. Again, it is not an accident not is it a coincidence that Real Madrid won La Liga in 2012 and 2017, precisely the two campaigns where the service distribution was relatively balanced. Mourinho with his second season mystique imposed his will against Ronaldo, and made the team work in 2012, the adjustment is shocking from 2011 to 2012; of course Ronaldo eventually won the fight, imposing himself as the GOAT hog of service distribution in the 2012/13 La Liga, as Real Madrid finished in 3rd place despite the fact that this was one of the weakest Barcelona sides in years; Mourinho was sacked of course, as Ronaldo imposed himself upon Mourinho's system; and this was also not coincidentally the beginning of the end of Mesut Ozil's career at the top, as Ronaldo's selfishness came with the consequence of damaging Ozil's actual value to the team. And then in 2017 it was simply a matter of Ronaldo being too old to even remotely justify his selfishness anymore; Ronaldo and Morata had roughly equal end product in 2017, which is when Real Madrid won the league, which again and not coincidentally, was the first season in a long time to have a relatively traditional distribution of service. Real Madrid Service Distribution Ronaldo Era 2009 - 2013 Ronaldo 2009/10 received 28.6% of the total service *** competitive *** Ronaldo 2009/10 received 29.2% of the total service *** blow out *** Conclusion: Similar percentage in both competitive margin games and blow out margin games, indicates that it was a traditional system, which not coincidentally was a league campaign where Real Madrid very nearly won La Liga against one of the strongest Barcelona sides of all time (at the time, the even better Barcelona side of 2010/11 was not yet a part of history). Ronaldo 2010/11 received 66.7% of the total service *** competitive *** Ronaldo 2010/11 received 63.3% of the total service *** blow out *** Conclusion: Similar percentage in both competitive margin games and blow out margin games, but this time the system was literally Ronaldo himself as indicated by the absurd 63% or 66% service distribution; this time Real Madrid had a worse campaign than the previous season, and Ronaldo fans will excuse this on the basis of Barcelona 2010/11 being arguably the greatest Barcelona side of all time, but the reality is that Real Madrid 2010/11 did worse (in fact a lot worse) than Real Madrid 2009/10 in La Liga. Ronaldo 2011/12 received 45.4% of the total service *** competitive *** Ronaldo 2011/12 received 45.3% of the total service *** blow out *** Conclusion: Mourinho adjusted the service distribution, and the result was the best ever La Liga campaign by Real Madrid, with Mesut Ozil having a particularly great campaign after being allowed to pass the ball to other targets not named Ronaldo. As is usually the case, for whatever the reason, Mourinho's best season was his second season, and as was also the case with Chelsea earlier in his career, his third season would be his last; and in the context of Real Madrid, it probably was Ronaldo's selfishness that Ronaldo 2012/13 received 38.89% of the total service *** competitive *** Ronaldo 2012/13 received 60% of the total service *** blow out *** Conclusion: Ronaldo's relentless monopoly as the farmer-in-chief, is why Real Madrid's ability to create service for said farmer declines heavily from 60 percent to 39 percent; not because it was a deliberate tactical alteration by Real Madrid, but rather because Real Madrid continues to do the same thing in the competitive margin games, roughly 60 percent of the service is still aimed exclusively at Ronaldo, but Ronaldo is not scoring at the same rate as he does in blow out wins, which is why the 60 percent figure becomes a 39 percent figure, and which is why players not named Ronaldo continue to not be able to make a difference in the competitive margin games. All of the above is why Real Madrid's worse results in La Liga happen in La Liga 2011 and La Liga 2013, the only two league campaigns where Ronaldo is getting service in the 60% range of the spectrum. And again, Real Madrid 2010/11 successfully replicated the same Ronaldo-centric statistical farming across all games; Ronaldo received the same percentage of converted service in competitive margin games or blow out margin games, and it still yielded comprehensively worse results than Real Madrid 2009/10. Even when the strategy is successfully replicated across all games; it still yields worse results for Real Madrid, because it is fundamentally a juvenile and futile tactic with no basis in reality. In this regard Ronaldo stands out as a particularly unique player, in that he can do an impressive and wide repertoire of skills in the context of youtube videos, but then in reality, he just lacks whatever decisive ability is necessary in order to replicate the same influence in the big games; very similar in my opinion to Rivaldo, in this regard. Both of them lack the ability to do their dribbling, and do the spectacular skills that they do, in the big games; Ronaldo completes a dribbling run, but most of the time to take a ridiculous shot himself (e.g. his game vs. Manchester City 2013), and the frustrating minority of times that he decides to pass the ball, his fundamentally selfish mind was thinking of himself first, and himself second, and himself third if at all possible, which is essentially why his pass delivery is more often than not a second or a split-second too late, not quite perfectly weighted, not quite perfectly aimed, which makes all the difference in the world in the big games. In summary: Ronaldo never actually replicated his legendary goal scoring form for Manchester United, outside of just the one season in 2007/08; Ronaldo never actually replicated his legendary goal scoring form at the World Cup, where even at his best, he crashed out immediately upon playing against Uruguay's organized defense; Ronaldo after 2016 has never been a legendary goal scorer in any league, as he failed to replicate the same goal scoring form in La Liga, and again as he continues to fail to replicate said legendary goal scoring form in the Serie A, where a 39 year old Zlatan Ibrahimovic is giving him a run for his money. 102 goals *** Real Madrid 2010/11 *** 64 goals *** Valencia 2010/11 *** 62 goals *** Sevilla 2010/11 *** 62 goals *** Atletico Madrid 2010/11 *** 62 goals *** Inter Milan 1997/98 *** 61 goals *** AC Milan 1988/89 *** Your argument is not only bad, but also very disrespectful to the history of this sport; the great R9 was not even good enough for Inter Milan 1997/98 to score more goals than Atletico Madrid 2010/11, a club that finished in 7th place in La Liga. Your fundamental problem and mistake, is that because you are so heavily invested in Cristiano Ronaldo's cult of personality, you simply do not want to see the reality that Ronaldo's consistency and longevity is a lot, a lot, a lot, the result of football being a lot less violent than in previous eras; the further improvement of conditioning and dieting, etc. Players like Baggio were well past their best at 28 years of age. Marco van Basten's ankle was destroyed, ending his career, as early as in 1992 or 1993; Van Basten was not even 29 years old at the time. The norm throughout the history of this sport, is that Pele never actually was the top scorer in any of his World Cups; is Pele not a true GOAT level scorer because he never actually demonstrated it at the World Cup? Or what about Romario? Romario was never the top goal scorer in a World Cup, and Romario also had one of the worse Champions League campaigns of all time. The fact of the matter is that consistency and longevity have been transformed over time, which is where Cristiano Ronaldo and Messi come into the story; and both Ronaldo and Messi have been rather frequently unimpressive in the big games, in fact they have been everything but consistent in the big games, which should give you a very fine idea of the versions of Ronaldo and Messi that you would have witnessed back in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Simply put, you are using relativity in favor of Ronaldo and against every other player not named Ronaldo; and you are so extreme in your method, that literally your argument is that R9 could not make Inter Milan a better scoring team than Atletico Madrid 2010/11... but then you also conveniently make no mention of what happens to Cristiano Ronaldo's superiority in the league format, where Luis Suarez and Zlatan Ibrahimovic are literally equals despite having enjoyed nowhere near as many of the unprecedented advantages that had to operate around the CR7 brand; of course, because that was the only way that Ronaldo could, at least on paper, at least by virtue of statistical manipulation, appear to be on the same level as Lionel Messi, who was far superior in the league format.
60 - David Silva created 60 goalscoring chances from open play in La Liga in 09/10, only 3 players (Ronaldo,Xavi,Kaká) created more. Threat— OptaJoe (@OptaJoe) June 30, 2010 You don't win 17 MOTM awards in 35 appearances for a team like real Madrid by only scoring goals,only providing assists or only laying off "simple" key passes In Ronaldo’s first season in La Liga, he covered 385 yards with the ball at his feet per 90 minutes. When he came to Spain, nobody ran with the ball more than Ronaldo. In 2009, he averaged 136 yards per 90 minutes in the middle; that was fourth most in the league, and he was the only non-Barcelona player in the top seven https://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-evolution-of-cristiano-ronaldo-real-madrid-manchester-united This was just posted(recently) His 4th game for real Madrid "The Portuguese is simply unplayable at the moment, and the manner in which he drove from his own half to net a stunning opener sent out a frightening message to the rest of La Liga" https://www.goal.com/en/news/12/spa...426/player-ratings-villarreal-0-2-real-madrid Mid-career Ronaldo was maybe the best ever at coming in from the flank, and this is maybe the most explosive example of it. https://www.footballcritic.com/great-goals/villarreal-cf-real-madrid-cf/cristiano-ronaldo/466
This is Ronaldo until 2013, and at that point, Ronaldo had only won 1 or 2 (depending on the cut-off date) Ballon d'Or trophies. And again, if prime Ronaldo was so great, why is his league record so demonstrably atrocious in 2010/11 and again in 2012/13?? Ronaldo was statistically great in La Liga 2010/11 and La Liga 2012/13, but the team results are in fact worse compared to 2009/10, 2011/12, or 2016/17. This Ronaldo v Van Basten thread is similar to the Neymar v Figo thread, in that Neymar has the superior modern statistics, and in that I think Figo would actually make his team better when you want him to have that impact; for example, the Champions League Final vs. Bayern Munich as one such example, of a game where Luis Figo would have almost certainly offered better end product and better overall influence than Neymar. Van Basten was more selfless, better defensively, and a better passer in any discussion vs. Cristiano Ronaldo, which is why I think Real Madrid would have done better in La Liga with Van Basten, than with Ronaldo. On the other hand, Cristiano Ronaldo looks better on youtube videos, where you do not get to see how what Ronaldo does on the youtube screen actually connects to the actual team performance; the actual points picked up by the team in the decisive competitive margin games that tend to decide the actual title, as opposed to the largely meaningless blow out games that have become youtube gold throughout Cristiano Ronaldo's career. I mean, from the point of view of aesthetics, if I want to be entertained by tricks and dribbles, I would rather have 1st-tier dribblers like Luis Figo or Michael Laudrup, rather than an overrated 2nd-tier dribbler like Cristiano Ronaldo. And at the same time, if I want to make my team better, I would have to believe that the spectacular side of Ronaldo's game is as spectacular as it is practical... and I do not believe that to be the case; Ronaldo's La Liga career is comprehensive evidence of that in my view. At any rate, I chose Figo over Neymar, and I chose Van Basten over Cristiano Ronaldo, for the same reasons. With both of Figo and Van Basten in my team I will get far better results, I get 1st-tier ball retention and dribbling by Figo, and I get 1st-tier finishing by Van Basten... On the other hand, if I built a team around an overrated player like Cristiano Ronaldo; I get 1st-tier finishing, but that 1st-tier finishing will immediately or eventually come at the expense of detrimental service distribution (because Ronaldo will eventually get his way by flexing his financial, political, and cultural power/influence upon the team), and to make matters worse, I also have to work with Ronaldo's 3rd-tier ball retention and 2nd-tier dribbling, which is why Ronaldo is nowhere near as great in the league format, because (detrimental) service distribution and over-valued ability has a chain-event consequence in the league format. In the Champions League format a club can alter the service distribution from game to game, and that will not necessarily have a chain-event consequence on the eventual final result; for example, Real Madrid can give 60% service to Ronaldo in the Quarter Finals, but then Real Madrid can just as easily give 35% service to Ronaldo in the Semi Finals, which is essentially what happened in 2018. At any rate, the significant change in tactics does not necessarily have a negative impact on the final outcome, because every stage is an isolated event consisting of two games, and the two-game-event of the semi-finals have no direct point-based influence on the previous isolated two-game-event that was the quarter-final, etc. In the league format, clubs that are expected to win actually need a consistent and coherent system, which is probably why Real Madrid won 3 consecutive Champions League, at the same time that Barcelona extended their dominion over the La Liga title. The Champions League has been won many times by unexpected or "undeserving" clubs throughout the years; the unconvincing Real Madrid 2000; the seemingly outdated Chelsea 2012; the untested Porto 2004; the lucky Liverpool 2005; etc. The same thing rarely ever happens in the league format. Long story short: league football almost by definition requires consistency and coherence, and when I look at Cristiano Ronaldo's time in La Liga, I cannot help but see an overrated player who didn't actually elevated Real Madrid in many of the years where Real Madrid could have realistically won the league title; 2013; 2014; 2016; 2017; and 2018.
NOTE: Regarding the argument in the above quote; all of the actual numbers and data is correct, but I made the mistake of thinking that 2012/13 was the league title that Atletico Madrid won... my mistake was largely a result of the fact that Real Madrid 2012/13 was behind both Barcelona and Atletico Madrid for most of the 2013 calendar year, which included substantial portions of the 2012/13 season. But anyways, Real Madrid 2012/13 was atrocious in La Liga, already literally out of the race by December of 2012, and doing a lot worse than in 2009/10.
I've been here before(the lengthy back and forth) Real Madrids goal explosion in la liga just randomly happened to directly coincide with Ronaldos period of dominance in Spain 9 - Real Madrid have scored 100+ goals in 9 La Liga seasons; 8 of them since Cristiano Ronaldo's arrival in 09-10 (107 in 89-90). Goal. pic.twitter.com/u77wROUdm0— OptaJose (@OptaJose) May 17, 2017 It's just random Now this is the actual heart breaker Cristiano Ronaldo could score a gazillion stat padded goals in garbage time but 2 factual things remain No player in la liga history scored more game winning goals than Cristiano Ronaldo in la liga 2011/12 Cristiano Ronaldo la liga 2011/12 17 match winning goals Lionel Messi 2012/13 14 match winning goals Samuel etoo la liga 2004/05 13 match winning goals Lionel Messi la liga 2011/12 13 match winning goals Cristiano Ronaldo la liga 2010/11 12 match winning goals Cristiano Ronaldo la liga 2013/14 12 match winning goals Gonzalo higuain la liga 2009/10 12 match winning goals Samuel etoo la liga 2005/06 11 match winning goals Cristiano Ronaldo la liga 2014/15 11 match winning goals Ronaldo nazario la liga 2003/04 10 match winning goals Luis Suarez La liga 2015/16 9 match winning goals Ronaldo nazario la liga 1996/97 8 match winning goals Romario la liga 1993/94 7 match winning goals Hugo Sanchez la liga 1989/90 7 match winning goals Ronaldo nazario 2002/03 6 match winning goals Premier league? Cristiano Ronaldo PL 2007/08 12 match winning goals Alan shearer PL 1993/94 12 match winning goals Robin van persie 2011/12 11 match winning goals Thierry Henry PL 2003/04 10 match winning goals Thierry Henry PL 2002/03 10 match winning goals Wayne Rooney PL 2009/10 10 match winning goals Alan shearer PL 1995/96 10 match winning goals Harry kane 2016/17 10 match winning goals Kevin phillips 1999/00 9 match winning goals Didier Drogba PL 2009/10 9 match winning goals Robbie Fowler 1994/95 9 match winning goals Van nistelrooy 2002/03 9 match winning goals Mohammed salah 2018/19 9 match winning goals Andy cole 1993/94 9 match winning goals Gareth bale 2012/13 9 match winning goals Mo Salah 2017/18 8 match winning goals Riyad Mahrez 2015/16 8 match winning goals Cristiano Ronaldo 2006/07 8 match winning goals Thierry Henry 2001/02 7 match winning goals Luis Suarez PL 2013/14 7 match winning goals Jurgen klinsmann PL 1994/95 7 match winning goals Cristiano Ronaldo PL 2008/09 7 match winning goals Sadio mane PL 2019/20 7 match winning goals Mo Salah PL 19/20 7 match winning goals More pertinent than all of this van basten in a league format was nowhere near as clutch as Cristiano Ronaldo Nowhere near Van basten eredivisie 1985/86 9 match winning goals Van basten eredivisie 1986/87 5 match winning goals Van basten Serie A 1988/89 8 match winning goals Van basten Serie A 1992/93 7 match winning goals These are widely considered to be his best league campaigns And this is just goals Outside of it van basten is nowhere near Tier 2 dribbling or tier 550 dribbling Peak Cristiano is and will always be considered a demonstrably superior dribbling and ball carrying outlet than Marco van basten with just plainly put far greater ball handling skills and athleticism Facts Its just a totally different level of player What about some 2nd tier league like bundesliga Ronaldo has now faced six German clubs - Bayern Munich, Borussia Dortmund, Schalke 04, VfB Wolfsburg, Stuttgart and Bayer 04 Leverkusen - in the Champions League, failing to score only against Stuttgart, for a total of 27 goals in 25 games against clubs from the Bundesliga. The Portugal captain has scored 9 goals in 8 games against Bayern Munich, 7 goals apiece against Borussia Dortmund and Schalke 04 in 9 and 4 games respectively, 3 goals in 2 games against VfB Wolfsburg, 1 goal in 1 game against Bayer 04 Leverkusen and no goal in one game against Stuttgart. It is a scoring rate of 1.08 goals per game. https://www.sportskeeda.com/footbal...-juventus-down-bayer-leverkusen-on-matchday-2 This is against the German periodic top 4 Not the fodder lying at the bottom of the bundesfodder Robert lewandowski bundesliga 2019/20 12 match winning goals Gerd Muller bundesliga 1969/70 12 match winning goals Gerd Muller bundesliga 72/73 12 match winning goals Gerd Muller bundesliga 1971/72 9 match winning goals Karl heinz Rummenige 1979/80 9 match winning goals Gerd Muller bundesliga 1973/74 5 match winning goals https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/bundesliga/gamewinners/wettbewerb/L1/plus/?saison_id=ges https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/gamewinners/wettbewerb/GB1 https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/primera-division/gamewinners/wettbewerb/ES1 If Ronaldo played in the same league as gerd Muller,van basten or lewandowski no one would even remember that they existed Conclusion Ronaldo at his best was more clutch than anyone in premier league history At his best more clutch than anyone in la liga history I don't like to do this because there is alot of effort that goes into your posts but you're data is skewed and conclusions extremely faulty Ronaldo stat pads better than anyone else and is also more clutch than anyone else In a league format or champions league format End of story Next
I call BS on every single one of these highlighted claims Ronaldo has more pre assists in his career than van basten has assists I can prove that Probably double chances created prime vs prime although I cannot prove that Selfless? Like creating chances for your teammates? There are in a different universe altogether Van basten would never be on a list like this Do you have footage/data for this better defensive claim? Ronaldo played out entire seasons as a midfielder with defensive duties Anyways were talking about attacking output Dribbling and ball carrying is considerably more important for an attacker than defensive work rate We can agree to disagree though no problem I'm not sure I can debate with someone who argues against facts with pure conjecture More selfless This takes the cake Seriously dude wake up and smell the coffee C.Ronaldo 2007-2009 is very arguably an even a better player as van basten too Your obsession with Ronaldo and real Madrid has literally made you forget at Manchester United during a 3 year period between the ages of 21-24 he won a 3 peat premier league 2 back to back champions league finals 3× consecutive European player of the year Legendary performances throughout this period The ability to pull things out of the hat with 0 team service is what separates them 91st minute to win 2-1 THROWBACK:Cristiano Ronaldo’s STUNNING winning free kick against his boyhood club Sporting Lisbon in the Champions League. 👌UNREAL STRIKE. 🔥🔥 https://t.co/wVGMuGRmvy— The CR7 Timeline. (@TimelineCR7) April 30, 2020 Winning goal in a 3-2 champion's league QF aggregate THREAD: Cristiano Ronaldo Manchester United moments...🤯 THAT @Cristiano wonder-strike against Porto in 2009! #UCL | @ManUtd pic.twitter.com/oDcXVK0Rf6— UEFA Champions League (@ChampionsLeague) January 29, 2021 Magic like this Ronaldo backheel assist to Rooney 2007/08 against Aston Villa pic.twitter.com/gmBM1EjF4Y— Tom Bekhor (@Tomkingbekhor) October 9, 2019 Etc................. Just Please leadleader
2002- 2013 Best international performance https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n812S_WYreg Vs Netherlands Euro 2012 Final score Portugal 2-1 the Netherlands Direct contribution 2 goals Whoscored rating 9.35 And the average rating of everyone else on the pitch was 6.8 He was literally on a complete different level https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/5...ropean-Championship-2012-Portugal-Netherlands Shades of Diego Maradona vs England 1986 in single handedly making the difference(diego with his elite dribbling/ball carrying and Cristiano with his high risk/reward style of long distance shots and also great ball carrying) Different types of players End result ultimately being the identical Best champions league performance Cristiano Ronaldo masterclass against Arsenal, #OTD in 2009 ⚽️⚽️🅰️@Cristiano | @ManUtd | #UCL pic.twitter.com/NwIMzDNgPg— UEFA Champions League (@ChampionsLeague) May 5, 2021 Vs Arsenal away 2008/09 Direct Contribution: 2 goals+1 assist Final score:Manchester United 3-1 Arsenal Best league performance Aston villa home 2007/08 Direct contribution 1 goal+ 3 assists Final score: Manchester United 4-1 Aston villa Best domestic cup performance Fa cup final vs Millwall 2003/04 A young @Cristiano at his very best 🤩Relive his performance for @ManUtd in the FA Cup Final, #OnThisDay in 2004. pic.twitter.com/MLtdufKKb0— Emirates FA Cup (@EmiratesFACup) May 22, 2021 For reference On an individual level CR left Manchester United in 2009 aged 24 years old with the most goals scored in a single PL edition(31 league goals) A record since broken by Mo salah 10 years later His goals per 90 rate for a PL golden boot winner however remains intact https://statsbomb.com/2013/07/forwards-the-top-10-individual-seasons-2008-2013/ The most fouls won in the premier league during 2003 -2009 https://mobile.twitter.com/optajoe/status/254256254682267649 The most dribbles completed in the premier league during 2003 -2009 https://mobile.twitter.com/optajose/status/1260989936972546049 The most match winning goals ever scored in a single premier league season(12) https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/premier-league/gamewinners/wettbewerb/GB1/plus/?saison_id=ges A joint record he holds with Alan shearer 1993/94 Unanimous top dog if there ever was one https://mobile.twitter.com/Squawka/status/1251626558130798592 In the champions league between 2003-2009 He top scored in one edition 2007/08 Was the top dribbler in another edition 2006/07 Was voted MVP/best player/best forward of the 2007/08 edition Scored the officially recognised best goal of the 2009 calendar year to win the champion's league quarter final vs Porto Was objectively the best outfield player in a champions league final vs chelsea 2008 (elo 2 ranked in Europe)with great all round play Collectively (with his team) he won 3 consecutive league titles and played in 2 champions league finals This as the main protagonist and never a 'passenger' A then world record fee then accompanied his move to Real Madrid and his tenure at the club was comparable to the ones of Eusebio at benfica, ferenc puskas at honved and Johan cruyff at Ajax IMO What came before however isnt lauded enough The complete/all round attacking threat that was Cristiano Ronaldo at Manchester United was already a better player then van basten was at any of his clubs This isn't debatable either IMO
"In football, there are so many mortals and very few immortals: I can say that, like my father, Cristiano will always be remembered" Jordi Cruyff