Was Maradona Overrated

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Lincon18762, Dec 12, 2022.

  1. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I disagree about Cristiano. All his teammates talk about his professionalism and work ethic. How he is the first to arrive and last to leave. How he even changed the eating habits of everyone. He leads by example although he is also a vocal leader.
     
    SayWhatIWant repped this.
  2. Praasen

    Praasen Member

    Mohun bagan
    Argentina
    Jan 8, 2023
    Higuain disagrees
     
  3. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #828 carlito86, Jan 12, 2025
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2025
    Lionel Messi in La liga
    2018/19
    2019/20
    2020/21

    71 non penalty goals
    47 assists
    235 team goals
    50% direct involvement

    Lionel Messi - Detailed stats (Detailed view) | Transfermarkt





    Diego Maradona entire Serie A career
    51 non penalty goals
    50 assists
    278 team goals
    36% direct involvement

    Diego Maradona - Detailed stats (Detailed view) | Transfermarkt




    Lionel Messi in the 2018/19 CL
    12 non penalty/non handball goals




    Diego Maradona
    Entire World Cup career
    Entire Copa America career
    Entire European Cup career
    Entire UEFA Cup career
    Entire copa libertadores career
    12 non penalty/non handball goals
     
  4. Agility

    Agility Member

    Jan 17, 2019
    Cristiano is No Leader whatsoever.
     
    psnotyours repped this.
  5. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil






     
  6. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    Absolute phenom:
     
  7. Albiceleste2010

    Albiceleste2010 Member+

    Watford
    Argentina
    Jun 5, 2010
    Watford
    Club:
    Watford FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Conveniently forgetting the atrocities that the Imperial Japanese Army committed on civilians of China, Korea, Malaysia, the Phillippines, civilians from Europe & India. The atrocities are on a par & in some cases even worse than those committed by the SS.

    Dropping two nuclear weapons saved more lives given the IJA were determined everyone should die in the defence of the Home Islands.

    They were Fascists in every sense of the word if you knew anything about history which you obviously do not. They saw themselves as a master race who would lord it over the rest of Asia & it still has adherents in Japan in groups like the Nippon Kaigi who also believe Japan did not do anything wrong during their armed conflicts from Manchuria onwards.
     
  8. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #833 carlito86, Jan 15, 2025
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2025
    I retired from giving any political opinions here(this is a football forum and let’s keep it that way)
    Don’t believe for one second that I don’t have a response for this but I choose not to

    suffice to say I don’t condone nor justify the deaths of any civilians
    The ones at nanking nor the ones at Hiroshima and Nagasaki
    The ones in auschwitz nor the ones in Dresden
    The ones on October 7th nor the ones in Gaza
    They are all the same to me and the ends never justify the means.
    I don’t believe in the concept of the ‘lesser evil’
    Evil is evil or it isn’t at all

    I find that many of the ones who attempt to justify the deaths of civilians sitting in the comforts of their homes are the same ones who would go missing in action if they were enlisted to fight on the frontline of a war.
    It’s easy to talk about ‘justifiable’ deaths sitting behind a computer screen when it isn’t your own life at stake nor the lives of your loved ones.

    Now
    back on topic if you want
    The topic being why Diego Maradona is the most overrated all time great footballer and not why he was a crackhead woman beater(irrelevant as far as this football forum is concerned)
     
    SayWhatIWant repped this.
  9. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Calendar Year Stats
    Maradona 1985 to 1988
    Messi 2010 to 2012
    C.Ronaldo 2010 to 2012

    Pre-Assists (D): Strict Opta Criteria, Direct pass→Direct pass→Goal
    Pre-Assists (I): Indirect or Non-Opta, like deflected passes, gk rebounds, etc

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Calendar Year Stats
    Maradona 1984 to 1990
    Messi 2010 to 2014
    C.Ronaldo 2010 to 2014

    Pre-Assists (D): Strict Opta Criteria, Direct pass→Direct pass→Goal
    Pre-Assists (I): Indirect or Non-Opta, like deflected passes, gk rebounds, etc

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Loco

    Loco Member+

    River Plate
    Argentina
    May 1, 2005
    Miami
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    A pibe with a dirty face, a mane of hair rebelling against the comb; with intelligent, roving, trickster and persuasive eyes and a sparkling gaze that seem to hint at a picaresque laugh that does not quite manage to form on his mouth, full of small teeth that might be worn down through eating yesterday’s bread. His trousers are a few roughly sewn patches; his vest with Argentinian stripes, with a very low neck and with many holes eaten out by the invisible mice of use. A strip of material tied to his waist and crossing over his chest like a sash serves as braces. His knees covered with the scabs of wounds disinfected by fate; barefoot or with shoes whose holes in the toes suggest they have been made through too much shooting. His stance must be characteristic; it must seem as if he is dribbling with a rag ball. That is important: the ball cannot be any other. A rag ball and preferably bound by an old sock. If this monument is raised one day, there will be many of us who will take off our hat to it, as we do in church.
     
  12. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Is this copy and pasted from the Iglesia Maradoniana bible?
    https://www.theguardian.com/football/2008/nov/12/diego-maradona-argentina
     
    Isaías Silva Serafim repped this.
  13. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Calendar Year Stats
    Maradona 1982 to 1990
    Messi 2010 to 2015
    C.Ronaldo 2010 to 2015
    [​IMG]
     
  14. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Diego Maradona for Napoli
    Games: 257
    Goals: 115
    Assists: 75
    Non-Opta: 25
    Pre-Assists Opta: 35
    Pre-Assists Non-Opta: 16
    Team Contribution 266/388: 68.56%
    Clutch Contribution 162/233: 69.53%
    [​IMG]


    Lionel Messi for Barcelona

    Games: 778
    Goals: 672
    Assists: 269
    Non-Opta: 83
    Pre-Assists Opta: 129
    Pre-Assists Non-Opta: 46
    Team Contribution 1199/1801: 66.57%
    Clutch Contribution 537/813: 66.05%
    [​IMG]


    Cristiano Ronaldo for Real Madrid

    Games: 438
    Goals: 450
    Assists: 120
    Non-Opta: 28
    Pre-Assists Opta: 61
    Pre-Assists Non-Opta: 12
    Team Contribution 671/1128: 59.49%

    Clutch Contribution 293/522: 56.13%
    [​IMG]
     
    Buyo and Praasen repped this.
  15. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    Good man this
     
  16. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Maradona for Barça:
    58 games
    38 goals
    0,65 goals per game
    122 team goals
    2,10 team goals per game
    0,31 goal contribution percent
     
    Gregoire repped this.
  17. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Maradona vs Juventus
    Games: 15
    Goals: 5
    Assists: 5
    Non-Opta: 1
    Pre-Assists: 6

    Team Contribution 17/25:
    68%
    Clutch Contribution 11/13: 84.62%

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  18. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Remembering that Juve were a midtable team on that timeframe while Napoli were always the second or first at Serie A
     
  19. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Maradona vs Milan
    Games: 16
    Goals: 7
    Assists: 3
    Non-Opta: 1
    Pre-Assists: 1

    Team Contribution 12/20: 60%
    Clutch Contribution 6/10: 60%

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  20. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #845 carlito86, Jan 18, 2025
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2025

    ALL of the above means nothing.


    IMG_0381.jpeg

    Diego Maradona vs juventus
    5 goals
    5 assists
    15 games
    25 team goals
    Diego Maradona - Record against Juventus FC | Transfermarkt






    Diego Maradona vs Milan
    7 goals
    4 assists
    16 games
    20 team goals
    Diego Maradona - Record against AC Milan | Transfermarkt



    IMG_0380.jpeg

    Casagrande vs juventus
    4 goals+2 assists
    9 team goals
    9 games
    Casagrande - Record against Juventus FC | Transfermarkt



    Casagrande vs Milan
    3 goals+1 assist
    7 team goals
    10 games
    Casagrande - Record against AC Milan | Transfermarkt




    Overall


    Casagrande vs juventus/Milan

    7 goals+3 assists
    16 team goals
    19 games
    62.5% direct involvement





    Diego Maradona vs Juventus/Milan
    12 goals+9 assists
    45 team goals
    31 games
    46.6% direct involvement


    For the lovers of non penalty goals(even though I included them for both)
    Diego Maradona scored 3 penalties vs Juventus/Milan
    Wálter Casagrande scored 1



    Wálter Casagrande played in Serie A from 1987/88 to 1992/93 for two teams namely Ascoli and Torino



    When he played for Ascoli between 1987/88-1990/91 they never finished higher than 12th

    They were in fact relegated in 1989/90(bottom place in the league)


    When he played for Torino in 1991/92 and 1992/93 they finished in 3rd place and 9th place respectively



    You may like to also know that playing for Torino he scored from open play vs Real Madrid in the UEFA Cup semi final


    Diego Maradona has 0 non penalty goals in EC/UEFA Cup vs
    Real Madrid
    Barcelona
    Bayern Munich
    Juventus
    Milan
    Inter
    Bayern Munich
    Manchester United
    Liverpool
    Roma
    Tottenham
    Dortmund
    Atletico Madrid

    After scoring vs Real Madrid in the 1991/92 UEFA CUP SF Casagrande then went on to score two more goals in the final.
    Diego Maradona has never scored in a major final be it a penalty or not.
     
  21. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    #846 Trachta10, Jan 18, 2025
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2025
    Maradona is a playmaker, which is why he has such high numbers of pre-assists and assists relative to his goals. You might not understand this, but when a player takes on a playmaking role, their percentage contribution tends to decrease significantly. I've seen this through various comparisons—players who generate a lot of assists, like Figo, Beckham, Özil, and Giggs, have less than 30% contribution to their team's total goals. Meanwhile, the highest percentages are always seen in pure scorers or box strikers, like Romário, Batistuta, or Haaland.

    You have elite playmakers with much lower contribution than average strikers, for example.

    Do you understand why this happens?
    It happens because not every goal involves an Opta-assist, and it’s much harder—or less likely—to participate in a team goal through an assist than through scoring a goal. This creates a huge statistical disadvantage for players with playmaking characteristics who play deeper and focus on generating dangerous plays. Statistically speaking, they are less likely to achieve a high G+A average and, therefore, a high contribution percentage.

    One very basic point I notice in your way of thinking is that you directly associate the numbers you see with the supposed real ability of that player. For example, if Maradona generates fewer goals than Higuaín, your basic reasoning (and that of most people) is that this obviously means Higuaín is more skilled as a goal scorer than Maradona.
    In reality, what you need to consider is that there are 11 players on a team, and players have different functions, roles, and positions. Would Maradona score more goals if he played as a number 9, and does that make him a better goal scorer? No, that's a bad reasoning.

    If Maradona were a striker and didn’t score goals in matches where his team scored many goals, then obviously we could say he wasn’t fulfilling his role. But if Maradona generates many plays through his passes—pre-assists and assists—you can basically say that he is fulfilling his role perfectly.

    There are players whose specific role is to score goals, and that's why they score more goals. In fact, that's why most strikers' goals are tap-ins near the goal, where the team has to create those opportunities for them. That doesn't make them better players than the rest.

    That 8-year-old TikTok-level reasoning that the player who scores the most goals is better is something I thought I wouldn’t see in a forum like this. But incredibly, one has to explain basic things.


    Just as an example, Maradona’s total contribution in the Champions League and UEFA Cup is 70%. Using the same criteria, Messi’s in the Champions League is 66%, and Cristiano’s is significantly lower.

    Team Contribution 19/27: 70.37%
    [​IMG]

    To give you an idea of what 70% means, I'm sure there isn't any player in the history of football who can achieve similar numbers over a large number of matches. Only Pelé and Messi could have comparable percentages.
     
  22. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Maradona weren't a pure playmaker as the guys you mentioned bro. He were a penalty taker and the focal point of the attacking plays from Napoli. Özil had prime Ronaldo on his team. Giggs had prime Van Nistelrooy, Ronaldo, Ashley Cole and Andy Cole, Solskjaer, etc... and so did Beckham who just like Maradona took all the set pieces. It's literally not the same context. You're being unfair to suit your agenda. Maradona NEVER were a pure playmaker like KDB or Özil or Beckham. He were an hybrid of playmaker+goalscorer
     
  23. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Of all the players I have analyzed (without counting pre-assists), it’s no coincidence that the best values always belonged to Maradona, Pelé, and Messi, who are widely regarded by the majority and expert consensus as the three best players in history.

    The contribution percentage also proves that Maradona is statistically the pinnacle of football.
    Goals+Assists (Opta and Non-Opta)
    Pelé: 60.43%
    Maradona: 57.10%
    Messi: 56.10%
    Cristiano: 49.76%

    If I include Pre-Assists
    Maradona is arround 68%
    Messi 66.50%
    Cristiano 56.5%
    And Pelé is probably arround 68%

    An interesting statistic, analyzing all the existing videos of goals:
    Goals from open play where the player receives the ball from outside the box:
    Maradona: 38.7%
    Messi: 32.3%
    Pelé: 30.1%

    and goals where they pre-assist themselves:
    Messi: 21.5%
    Maradona: 9.4%
    Pelé: 8.96%


    This statistic seems extraordinary to me, can someone explain to me why Maradona far surpasses Messi and Pelé in these metrics? Even playing in a football with few shots like in the 80s?
    Best 15 games average

    Maradona
    [​IMG]

    Messi
    [​IMG]

    Pelé
    [​IMG]
     
  24. Isaías Silva Serafim

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Dec 2, 2021
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    So first you said Maradona were a playmaker so it's harder for him to have a higher goal contribution percent. Then you say Maradona had the highest goal contribution percent in history. Higher than even Messi or Ronaldo who were two of the best goalscorers in history. You're refuting yourself. If Maradona were by fact a pure playmaker like the players you mentioned then he surely would have 30% goal contribution. But he had one of the highest precisely because his team relied in him to score or assist more than Pelé's, Messi's and Ronaldo's teams. Your way of thinking that if player A had a higher goal contribution percent than player B then he is a better player is just as childish as the one you're criticizing. That stat only means that the team relied more on one player to score or assist than the team of other player. I already gave many examples of players who played with better attacking teammates having a lower goal contribution percent. For instance, Neymar had a far higher goal contribution percent at Santos than at Barcelona because he had Messi and Suarez on his same team at Barça while at Santos he were the focal point and there were no one even remotely close to his level at Santos' attack. He didn't become a worse player at Barça. It's just that Barça didn't relied only on him to score or assist.
     
  25. Trachta10

    Trachta10 Member+

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Yes he was a pure playmaker at times, Maradona is a versatile player who can adapt to the needs of the match and the opponent. In certain games, he can be 100% a playmaker, and in others, not so much, that's the point. You can see how, against Juventus, he has an enormous amount of pre-assists and assists. It's like Messi, who in difficult matches goes deep and tries to create dangerous plays. And that's exactly how his participation percentage decreases. Maradona is much more of an assister than Messi, for example, and in fact, Maradona has one of the highest assisted goal percentages in the records, far surpassing Giggs, Beckham, or Özil. And this is without even mentioning pre-assists, where it would place him even higher. So no, it's not an exaggeration. Maradona is not a pure playmaker precisely because he is an extraordinary player who can adapt and play any role, that's why he was the top scorer in the Argentine league five times in a row.
    There's no agenda here, the worldwide consensus among all football experts is to place Messi, Maradona, and Pelé as the three best players in history. Anyone who says that’s not the top 3 has his own agenda.
     

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