LD had 1 real assist in his first 7 matches before the camp, that was it. EJ had not scored. Bedoya was not in MLS but was a starter in League 1 in France at the time. Zusi was MLS best XI the prior season, Brad Davis led MLS in assists the prior year, Wondo started the season hot with 5Gs. I was on record at the time in saying that Klinsmann should have taken The Talisman but that view was not universal. In fact there was a ESPN poll at the time with IIRC > 70,000 respondents, surprisingly 30% agreed with Klinsmann. Klinsmann could have taken LD, it certainly would have been politically an easier and safer decision. JK could have easily taken LD instead of Brad Davis and there would have been no issues. Bedoya was a starter based on the then MMA style midfield. Zusi was enormous during WCQ as a very high work rate 2-way attacker and did net 2As at the WC.
Bedoya had 3 goals in 2013 and then after December nothing but he was a must have. And apparently zusi made the MLS XI and so did LD. Who had a better Nats history.
The problem I have with this whole debate and thread is that certain parties won't acknowledge two separate thoughts because that would mean to acknowledge both thoughts they would have to abandon their guy. 1) A coach's job is to win the games. It is that coach's job to get the culture right and to put the roster together however he fells it needs to be. If he feels he needs to change players positions or not take certain players because they do not fit his style and tactics, he is allowed that right. 2) if the coach decides to leave a player off the roster because that said player does not fit his vision but then during the course of that tournament it is made readily apparent that said player would have been useful in the campaign and quite possibly a Difference Maker that coach and his supporters have to have the decency to at least say yes in hindsight that player most likely would have made a difference. LD fans wont acknowledge one but they will number two and JK fans wont acknowledge number two but they'll acknowledge one
I never used the word scum and don't believe it is strong enough. The behavior they have exhibited since May of 2014 is disgusting. The topic of Klinsmann can't come without them being triggered. That is derangement. No clue what you are attempting to say with the second half of that sentences and the next. I'm not defending anyone. I am just making clear your opinion and the other weirdos are saying on the topic isn’t accurate.
Ageee. That is an opinion. He could have been a super sub or a distraction. After seeing his public meltdown after being cut, I suspect it would have impacted the locker room in many ways.
You are defending JK by quoting him while saying LD fans terrible. What's Wild as I've never heard one person maybe it's been a while but no one is using language that you use for LD fans at JK fans.
Reasonable posts & arguments here (to be fair), but do you guys really think Brad Davis, Alejandro Bedoya and Graham Zusi were better than Landon Donovan in 2014 and bigger difference makers for the national team? I get that he had a slower start to 2014 by his standards, but it's clear he was rounding into fitness and form based on how hot he got in MLS immediately after the cut. He set a career high in matches played, minutes and assists in 2014. And despite the slow start that year and the tendonitis, he still accumulated 5 assists in 11 matches to start the year (2 USMNT friendlies, 2 CONCACAF Champions League matches, 7 MLS regular season maches). I get that Zusi was MLS Best XI in 2012 and 2013. Donovan was Best XI 2008-2012 and again in 2014. And the only year he wasn't during that span (2013), he was still better in MLS IMO (19 goals/assists vs. Zusi's 14 + passed the eye test better). Zusi was a serviceable player for the USMNT from 2012-2014 and his crossing was excellent, but come on -- he had 5 goals and 7 assists in 54 career caps. Landon Donovan had exactly that many goals and assists in the 2013 Gold Cup alone. We were comparatively weak on the wing that 2014 cycle when Donovan was out of the squad. All respect to Bedoya and Zusi for their commitment and contributions, but they wouldn't have been starters on the wing in any other USMNT World Cup squad since 1990. I realize I'm making a stats-heavy argument above, but I'm doing so because that's more objective. Speaking subjectively, Donovan still passed the eye test better than any of the other winger players on our 2014 squad.
Give me a break.... and you wonder why I can't stand you guys. The part you continue to not get is that someone like me doesn't have a guy. There are some dudes who id bet jump at the opportunity actual blow LD. You clowns won't even agree to the facts of what happened prior to that camp. Let's test your little theory. Id first like to say, this is way more complicated than your two statements. So I'd add some and slightly adjustments. 1) correct i would agree. 2) I agree that by mid summer LD was fully fit and playing well and that version of LD could definitely helped the USMNT. You guys have shown no decency since that day so you might want to ditch your moral superiority. A) Klinsmann stated that he wanted the players to take a more professional approach to their careers and had high expectations in terms of fitness of training. He publicly stated he couldn't do all that work he knew his body. Apparently he didn't as he spent the first part off 2014 with tendinitis which is an overuse injury. His yapping of his mouth was him in essence challenging Klinsmann to get rid of him. It wasn't Klinsmann opinion LD didn't meet the culture. LD said it. B) LD's play throughout his career was ridiculously uneven. His long time coach said he didnt know which LD was going to show up on any given day. A motivated LD could have two successful stints at Everton, an amazing GC in 2013 (the motivation came from Klinsmann), and strong 2014 season after being cut. You monday morning quarterbacks guys can obnoxiously treat the guy like he is horrible for everything, but the coach making the decision didn't have that benefit. It is unfortunate LD didn't come into camp in top shape with the motivation he had when he got cut. C) It was stated that LD was brought into camp to see if he could win a starting position and would be cut if not. The rationale was that there would be a concern that if LD was on the bench, that story would be a distraction to the team. There are multiple sides to this. The fuss that MLS, media, and fans made about him being cut suggest that there would have been a ton of noise. The flip side of it was that LD hadn't been with the first team that much over the previous year and a half. The dynamic in the locker room had changed and believe it was Bradley who made a comment about them doing a lot without him. Finally, how many times had LD ever come off the bench successfully in his career? How would handle that and would say something stupid like continously did. Let's stop there. There is alot more, but don't feel like wasting the time when I doubt you will acknowledge any of this.
Have heard what you called LD fans. I can't find anyone calling you those kind of names. You State 2 then go on to make statements that shoe you disagree with it. You could have stopped at my argument but you had to add extra. I wonder why.
No, I wasn't defending him. I was responding to a rational poster who was questioning why LD was being considered as a sub rather than a starter. Since this appeared to be a reasonable discussion, I found some information that could help ground the discussion facts. I didn't think I was going to trial to litigate this topic and this would be the last time to provide evidence. I have no idea why adding a quote from Klinsmann that was consistent with the way he actually played in the game would cause so much consternation. I'm trying to have a conversation and you have been in a fight for over 10 years. So instead of an actual discussion you have been criticizing how I discuss this with another. Pretty despicable behavior. First of all, we are talking about LD stans and people that don't think Klinsmann was bad for US soccer (and likely could have done a lot more if the LD stans didn't interfere... btw, this behavior impacted not a only Klinsmann, but the usmnt). I completely disagree. LD stans went after people the believed were JK fans. Anybody who defended anything JK did were insulted and mocked. Maybe you should refresh your memory by checking discussions about the topic in 2014.
A poster made a statistical argument and your answer was what you thought and what the coach who you're defending's opinion. In the world of debate normally you would pull out a neutral third party to defend your point but what you're pulling is the person who made the decision defending the decision. I only have witnessed your behavior and the words you used. I can only judge on that.
No. I think LD was a more talented player than many in the roster. It wasn't about talent. It was about 18 months of creating reasons why he someone could justifiably cut the guy, team dynamics, and specific things JK wanted to bring to the USMNT. The expectations of hiring Klinsmann was to win games, but also transform US soccer. The reality is that LD was a massive under achiever. His talent exceeded MLS and most of the USMNT which enabled him to coast when ever he felt like it. This went against everything JK was preaching and trying to change. Opinion/Observation.... The MLS guys for the most part were roster filler. Most if not all of the guys from MLS were hard working over achievers who would be happy playing whatever role they got. In addition, many of them had specific skills that a role could be created for them that they would have a chance succeeding. I think it was more about the locker room and team dynamics. This team fought like crazy in 3 of the 4 games and the other game against Germany was successful in managing goal differential in last group match while being completely outmatched.
I think I told you why. I found your statements massively incorrect. What I did do was agree with more statements than you could agree with. I also added information that made your two statements less conclusive. As pertains to point two, I agree it is an argument, but provide reasons why it isnt definitive. The reality is there is nothing anyone can state is definitive about the situation. The reality is if LD were on the team it might have helped and it might have hurt. What we actually know is that we had a successful WC without him. Yet, you and all the LD stans are 100% positive if LD were on the team we would have been more successful.
No clue what the point of this is and don't care. I dont care to go down this path, but being who you are, I can comfortably guess you didn't look for any and know I could find more than enough examples to justify my comments. Judge me all day long. This board does it constantly to people who don't fall in line with whatever narrative it is pushing.
Bedoya was 2nd in tackles at WC2014 to JJ. He played a tilted CM much like JJ in the 4-3-1-2 diamond. That is why Bedoya was there. Bedoya was in no way, shape or form competing with LD.
Is this idiot really trying to compare an overachieving workhorse to a prima Donna that rode through his on innate athletic ability and California vibes? I ********ing hate these people. These have to be the dumbest sports fans of all time.
Keep in mind that Davis, Zusi, and Bedoya were never brought to play "wingers".. That may be a disconnect. JK decided to play a narrow 4-3-1-2 diamond at the WC. We debuted it vs Mexico in the April sendoff. Mexico friendly Wondo Deuce Bradley Davis Zusi Beckerman Beltran Besler Gonzo Parkhurst Rimando In that match Green came on for Davis and LD for Zusi at 60. Donovan was poor in that match in that tilted CM role and that IMO set the stage. LD was only suited to play one of the top 3 roles. Arena said he spoke with Klinsmann and there is a reason that LA switched to the diamond and played LD in a top 3 role. World Cup Starters Altidore Deuce Bradley Jones Bedoya Beckerman Beasley Besler Gonzo Fab Howard Of course Davis, Zusi, and Bedoya were not LD in his prime. LD was nowhere near his prime in 2014 and to his credit he admitted that in his kicking it sitdown. I will say that LD going off in MLS after the WC squads were assembled is also due to many of the best players in MLS away for WC duties.
Can I just point out that when Joey got hurt, Jurgen didn’t turn to one of the guys he took instead of Landon. Not Johansson, not Green, nobody. He moved Clint up to striker and Bradley up to the #10 role. In other words, Jurgen’s own decisions tell us without any doubt that the players he took instead of Landon were useless. As in, he had no use for them. It was a neat little ending like one of Aesop’s fables. Arrogant man makes arrogant decision, and within half an hour he was forced to deal with the consequences of his arrogance, namely, Michael Bradley as his main creative force. Bradley had strengths as a player, but surely it’s not controversial that lack of creativity was one of his weaknesses.
There are many ways to reply to this absolutely ridiculous posts. I need time to figure that out, so I am going to some good old fashioned fact checking and isolate extreme statements (i got one me tonight, hopefully get to others and figure out how to respond tomorrow). Wild nut job LD stan: "Can I just point out that when Joey got hurt, Jurgen didn’t turn to one of the guys he took instead of Landon. Not Johansson..." Fact: when Joey Altidore got hurt, it was actually Aaron Johasson who was subbed on