I ref high school basketball and football, and I'm not even 30 yet. That said, I started as a 20-year-old college student back in 2015.
I was taking my ref re-cert and I got this question. I assume since my answer was wrong that the goal will stand. I know that they have once again changed the handling rule and it's hard to keep track of all the changes. But given the generic nature of the question, do you agree with the answer? I get it if the accidental touch is trifling, then sure, let it count. But if the ball deflects in any material way, even if accidental, how can we let this stand? I am envisioning the ball clearly and obviously, but accidentally hitting someone's arm and deflecting to a teammate who drills the gift into the net. And the ensuing argument. And the young ref who has this as their most recent instruction on what the call should be. And that ref gets a ton of grief and says, the hell with this gig.......
2 years ago your answer would have been correct but under New Improved Law 12TM only a hand-ball encounter by the scorer would get pulled back. Here's hoping the ref ate his Wheaties.
I believe the thinking is if the ball hits your arm, you can't benefit. A ball that hits your arm, you never know anything about it, and a teammate pounces on it, that is viewed as too harsh to punish.
Law 12, page 100. "It is an offence if a player: .... scores in the opponents' goal" directly from their hand/arm, even if accidental, including by the goalkeeper immediately after the ball has touched their hand/arm, even if accidental." Note that it says 'a player' not a team. So, if you accidentally touch the ball and it either goes in directly from that contact or you then kick it/head it in, it does not count. But if your teammate receives the deflection and scores, that is not handling, assuming your teammate does not also handle. As Pittsburgh Ref notes, the teammate part was in Law 12 for a while, but no longer. And sometimes we will have to deal with one team agreeing and one team disagreeing, no matter what our decision, when there's contact with the hand or arm of a player in the penalty area. It comes with the territory.
Sounds like a prime opportunity to stop the game and bet the player/coach an OFFINABUS red card that you’ll go to your phone and pull up the IFAB rule book. If they’re right you take the goal away, if you’re right they get an OFFINABUS red card. See if they’ll put their money where their mouth is
This would be one of the rare times that I'd play the "I'm an instructor" card and tell the coach I know this law because it's my job to make sure new referees understand this. I've actually done a short exercise with two kids to illustrate which play is illegal and which is legal. Sure, the coach will still argue, but that coach can't say that I didn't know the Laws.
They won't care one bit about your credentials. It's just unfortunate that soccer, or at least NFHS, doesn't have a protest rule where you can immediately protest a decision and the game stops, you go to the rule book, etc. like NFHS water polo does. I had to implement it a few times this season and it's great to see a coach be wrong. The best thing would be to go to the raving coach and say "coach, you're getting a yellow card for this behavior. However, I can stop the game and go get the rules off my phone. If you're right, I will reverse the decision but you still have the yellow card. If I'm right, you get a second dissent yellow card and you're gone. What do you want to do"
There are times where you just have to be the bigger person and understand that no amount of action will change minds if the other person is so steadfast. If the coach still persists, you just have to move onward. Nothing good will come from a “bet” like that. I realize other sports have a protest like that, but we don’t. The only thing I might do after the game is send a screenshot of the Law to the club director if I know that person and explain what happen. I know a lot of the directors because of my state referee committee role, so I wouldn’t necessarily recommend this. But then I’d let it go and move on. Sometimes, people don’t want to admit they are wrong.
I am fine with this, but I worry about my boys. As coach of a u16 rec team, the bigger challenge I have is backing off a bunch of mostly 14 yo boys. I know rec is at the end of the trough when it comes to ref quality, but some of the absurd &^%$ I saw in the fall, I don't get how some of these refs get paid to ref, but I know how short youth sports are around here when it comes to officials. The WaPo ran an article a couple of years ago with some harrowing experiences some high school and travel refs have had. The one guy always has a bat in his trunk with the expectation that he'll need it someday. A local rec coach was as assaulted by a parent with metal water bottle this season over where the parent's kid got to play, not even playing time. People are bat shit crazy. This is one season's worth of BS and I wonder not if but when a kid, hopefully not one of mine loses it on an official in a bad way. 1) At an away game the opposing team has 3 kids with taped on numbers. Some of the associations in our league come from seriously disadvantaged areas. The spirit of the rule is to fix a number conflict like 3 becomes a 13 or an 8, 19 becomes 119 which was codified a long time ago. The idea that someone has to tape on a 7 to a red polo shirt or 10 onto a mostly red t-shirt is outside of the spirit and the actual text of the rule. The ref insisted the taped numbers rule changed when I questioned it, I disagreed and he persisted so I let it go. The opposing players w/taped on numbers scored 5 of 6 goals against us. Yea that's legit. 2) Same ref as above refed an 80 min game and called 0 fouls in my team's favor, not one call. Is it even possible for a u16 rec team to play 80 min and not commit a single foul, no matter how dominant they might have been? 3) At another away game, the ball was shot, hit the wheel on the outside of the goal, rebounds awkwardly and is then shot into the net. This goes w/another questionable end line call that ended up in the back of the net in the same game. 4) More away games BS, my kid is on the break, opposite side from the AR and is yanked down by his collar, no call, not even after he shows the ref a torn neckline on his jersey to go with a long red abrasion on his neck and fingernail scrapes across his shoulder. 5) Home game BS, there's a handball in the box, I am a good 75 yds away, but I saw it plain as day and so did the teenage AR who raised his flag before the word handball left my mouth. I encouraged him to keep his flag up for at least 5 min before he gave up. The center never looked. We drew 1-1 6) My kid is down from a slide tackle, right at the centerline, I get to him as play stops and I am waved on, he's got the cleat marks down the inside of his leg from just below the knee down past his shin guard and the ref was like sorry, I missed it coach. Things turned very shouty when they complained about a really bad missed call and I made the mistake of reminding him that they're lucky to have 11 kids on the field. This is just this past fall season. I've swallowed my ego & pride multiple times, but sooner or later one of these boys is going to lose it. I've seen their Snapchat, its full of next time this happens... threats. I tamp it down at halftime or after the game, but they all know they're getting f--ed when we're away to 3-4 associations. These boys are growing into manly bodies with juvenile brains, I hope its not one of mine, but its for sure on the menu somewhere in the heat of the moment. Having just gotten done typing this all out, who would believe this is actually real?
My purpose in posting this test question was not so much to debate the ruling, but to lament the the poor 14 yr old ref who ends up calling this. And the fact that they WILL get grief for it because it is "not what soccer expects" and while being 100% correct in their call, may decide they don't need this crap and thus our ref shortage gets a little bit worse......
OK, I'm in a mood this morning, so I'll bite. @PSURoss, is there any other part of your life where you think it's ok to yell at a teenager or another adult who is out there doing their job so you can have fun? To publicly criticize their work, with the attitude that strongly implies "it's kind of their fault that a bunch of teenage boys assaulted them, if they had done their job like I think they should it wouldn't have happened?" I can't imagine there is. If you take your boys to Pizza Hut after the game and they forget all the pepperoni, is it ok if your boys beat the crap out of them? If the kid running the slide at the water park counts wrong and lets someone go in front of your son, do you scream in his face? No? Then be a leader. Do the thing you've likely volunteered to do - step up, be a role model, teach them that this is _just a kickball game on a Saturday afternoon with their friends_ and not worth getting so angry about that they threaten the safety of others - and demonstrate that yourself by showing respect and expecting that of your athletes, parents, and everyone else around. Based on your description of your behavior and your team's attitude, I can promise you that there isn't a single experienced referee on the planet who thinks the $45 they're going to make to be with your boys for 90 minutes (plus driving time) is worth it. You should not be surprised that you are not getting more experienced referees. Think about the motivation of the referees for a moment - why should they choose your game over other ones, or over spending time with their friends or family? Nobody wants to get yelled at or feel like their safety is at risk. I'm uninterested in responding to your litany of complaints, since none of us were there and some of them are absurd, and I don't want to get into a back-and-forth with you. I _really_ don't care about the taped numbers, though. What was the other option? Forfeit the game, so your team gets a meaningless win in a meaningless league and nobody gets to kick the ball? As you said, you have folks from disadvantaged communities in these games, who are just trying to play soccer and may be wearing the only red shirts they have available right then. Maybe have a little compassion with your orange slices. Seriously, man, do better. Step the f up. Go become a referee. Be a leader.
One of my pregame instructions to my ARs is that if you raise your flag, never put it down until either I wave you down or I blow the whistle. When I am an AR, I ask the CR if he wants the same thing. Don't tell USSF, but that has become a lot easier with comms.
Whenever I see a long ass post from a username I don’t recognize, I know what’s coming, it’s like clockwork. Thanks for putting “I’m a coach of…” right at the start though Im not going to read your long ranting, but you’re a rec coach. If the refs suck and you worry about your players safety, then pull the players off the field and forfeit. I know it’s unfair to the kids but it’s the only thing you can do. I’ve had it happen in competitive level games where I’m an AR because my center is incompetent
I agree with seattlebeach, but also want to suggest that this is the perfect opportunity for a coach to teach their players a life lesson. The lesson is that no matter where you go or what you do, there isn't going to be anyone who is perfect. If perfection is the only acceptable performance, then everyone fails every time, maybe in a big way, maybe in a teeny tiny way, but no one is perfect, especially you, mister teenage rec player, so don't expect or demand it of others. You didn't get your way? Nobody always gets their way.
I just wish there was a way to make some parent or coach who gets kicked off a field have THEIR KID referee a game and the parent has to sit and watch how their kid gets treated. Maybe that might change their perspective when they’re going into a rage about THOSE adults treating THEIR child like crap
Yes, but I am particularly unhappy about this change. I really liked the clarity of the previous law - you can't have ANY handling in the box by the offense and score a goal. Clear, concise and what the game expects. Easy to explain and enforce. I assign hundred of kid refs and I can see the trends. In this case, and for these refs, the old way was better.
I'll respond only to this complaint. It could be, as another person posted, that these players had legitimate reasons for not having a regular uniform that day. Perhaps as noted they are from an underprivileged background. Maybe they don't have the funds to purchase a uniform. Maybe they have a uniform, but they didn't have ready access to laundry facilities so they were still in the hamper. Whatever. The ref made a good-faith effort so that they (and your team) could play. I reffed a game for one team, maybe U14 and in a rec league like yours, that had two uniforms in different colors. They showed up to their away game, deliberately wearing the same color as they knew the home team wore. I knew they were instructed to bring only the one uniform because one kid brought both and got some flack for it. The home coach was desperate, then remembered that he had a bunch of souvenir shirts in the back of his car that he was going to give the team after the game. "Can they wear these? They're gray (different color) but they don't have any numbers." I allowed it. I joked to the team that because they didn't have numbers, they couldn't get cards because I couldn't record it. They had no problem with that. Then I said they couldn't get credit for any goals either - eh, not so happy with that. (I had intended all along to simply ask them for their number if I had to record something.) We played the game. I don't remember who won. But I do remember the bad taste in my mouth about a coach who was trying to force a forfeit just because of uniforms. Or maybe in your case, given that the goals were scored by these three mis-uniformed players, you thought they were "ringers" and not really on the team. If the league has some process for the ref to identify players before the game and that was followed, then there is no complaint. If the league does not have a process for identifying registered players, that's on the league, not the ref.
To add onto this, if the original respondent really does feel like there is a safety issue or a major rules/laws issue, the proper way to channel this is through the club. The club can then discuss with the assignor. If the assignor feels like there is enough of an issue to talk with the state referee committee or appropriate governing organization, that can happen. I get Iowa is a smaller state than a lot of others, but I've made it very clear in my position that I want and need to know when issues like what is being alleged happens. Now I'm sure that if an assignor gets one complaint, it will likely be "filed away" unless it's specific and important. Now if the same referee gets several complaints from different clubs or coaches, then we may have an issue. Or, if the same coach or club is constantly complaining about referees, then I'll take those with a grain of salt. But if we feel like a particular referee needs some additional training, then we'll work to get a mentor to watch that referee and/or have a discussion and see how we can help. But the one thing that WILL NOT help matters is blasting things like "we'll get him the next time he does this" on social media. As others have said, in what other area of work or life would anyone find it acceptable to abuse people like we abuse referees? If an adult would scream at a kid checking you out at the grocery store, there would be a manager called right away. Possibly security or even the police as well. If I screamed at a vendor or a customer like I've heard people abuse officials, do you think that company would want to do business with my organization again? We all know the answers to those questions. I'm seriously thinking about putting a short presentation together to share with clubs for the spring. It will be really simple. One or two slides will be videos of people getting abused in everyday life. Once everyone sees how bad this looks, then the next slide is a parent or coach abusing a referee with the question "Then why is this acceptable?"
In your own post, you admitted you are not a leader. If one of my players typed anything like this, they'd be gone off the team. No warnings. The examples cited are all petty. Yes, there's going to be missed calls for both teams. It's not about swallowing your pride and ego. You are responsible for the actions of your players. It's time you step down before one of your players does something stupid.
You've assumed a lot of facts that aren't in my post. First off, I haven't yelled or been aggressive with anyone. Second, you seem to assume that there is only way a ref, kid or parent would address a ref. Third, only one of the refs referenced in my post was not an adult and I didn't even speak to her about ignoring her AR. I thanked the 3 of them for the game and went on my way, which is pretty much what I did each time. But since I don't post here regularly, my opinion has less or negative value. Sorry, this is my last one, I won't do it again. The point I was making is that the shortage is creating a situation some people, and I worry that it will be a kid I am responsible for, will make a poor choice in the heat of the moment, because whether the person in question plays pro, scholastic, travel or rec, they're playing they game with some expectation of an experience that might be met at an anticipated level. Whether that's a valid perspective can be debated when its a pre-adolescent kid who just endured a 8 game season with the highlights I called out. As the volunteer dad of only one of the 18 boys at the game, its nervy to think about 14 yo male impulse control with kids who I don't always know how they'll respond to a situation, especially one that I perceive correctly or incorrectly, as frustrating.