Tired of WC Maradona and Pele fanboys

Discussion in 'World Cup 2018 - Russia' started by AutomaticSnake12, Jul 11, 2018.

  1. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    The problem is not having an opinion "against" Pele and Maradona. The problem is how you express it grossly belittling them.

    And if you're tired of seeing the arguments about Pele and Maradona being among the greatest ever, perhaps you shouldn't start a tread to talk about it.
     
  2. HomietheClown

    HomietheClown Member+

    Dusselheim FC 1971
    Sep 4, 2010
    Club:
    --other--
    I view sports a lot like I do food and music.
    We all have different tastes and preferences and sure, as technology advances many things do get better.
    But there is nothing like a good classic steak on a fire open pit. And there is nothing like good Classic music today. Even modern chefs and musicians look to the past and are influenced by people who did things before them and appreciate their greatness.
     
  3. Trachta10

    Trachta10 New Member

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
  4. Trachta10

    Trachta10 New Member

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
  5. Trachta10

    Trachta10 New Member

    Apr 25, 2016
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
  6. marianelah

    marianelah Member

    Real Madrid
    El Salvador
    Jan 14, 2006
    Messi's wins are/were in the near perfect cocoon called Barcelona. Grew up playing football and winning with Iniesta, Xavi, Fabregas, Puyol, Pique etc. One or two of his Ballon de Oros should have gone to Xavi and/or Iniesta. But there's a marketing machine called Leo Messi that has to be fed at all costs; Because so many get wealthy off it .

    This caught up to Argentina in this WC; no one wants to offend the goose that lays the golden eggs; even the coach. As long as he's brining in the millions; everyone shuts up and goes along. We'll see how things unfold at Barcelona as his team and skills goes thru an overhaul.

    It would be nice to see him win ONE thing outside his barcelona cocoon thou.
     
    Oddo26 repped this.
  7. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Nonsense.

    Barca has already basically gone through a full overhaul.

    As an example, Messi has played up top with Ronaldinho, Eto'o, Pedro, Henry, Villa, Alexis, Neymar, Suarez not to mention some lesser name fillers. Xavi is long gone. Pique is a CB and irrelevant to Messi in terms of influence. Iniesta was the last one left. Busquets is still in the team, but he took over from Yaya.
     
  8. marianelah

    marianelah Member

    Real Madrid
    El Salvador
    Jan 14, 2006
    Ah, forgot to list some of the near perfect cocoon participants; thanks for helping complete the list that helps my argument! Oh and Pique is Messi's Mascherano on the team; not irrelevant as Messi has a minus 100 leadership score.

     
  9. Oddo26

    Oddo26 Member

    Jul 12, 2014
    New York City
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Uruguay
    Pretty sure Suarez is still there. But yeah his teams outside of the Barca "cacoon" are just not that bad by any standards except when compared to his domestic team and him not only failing to win the World Cup but any other international tournament since the Olympics is glaring. No excuse for him to not win Copa America once given the frequency at which that tournament at times has been held. I mean Chile has a dynasty going in Copa America right now and they aren't even in the World Cup.

    But yeah his Argentina teams have been really good compared to the horrible squads Maradona was given.

    I think his 2014 and 2018 performances were similar in 2014 he got a very lucky bracket in 2018 he got a very unlucky bracket. He's been in a position where he could have won his team tournament's and just hasn't done it.
     
  10. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Regarding the "frequency at which the Copa America at times has been held"...
    Messi's first Copa was 2007... followed by 2011 and 2015. Four year gaps.
    The quickly assembled 2016 "Centenario" tournament was treated like an official tournament but, let's be honest, if Argentina had won it the Messi detractors would have laughed at the validity of that competition.
    As it stands, Messi's Argentina were thrashed in the 2007 final but were knocked out of the other three tournaments on penalties against the teams that ultimately won those competitions.
    People look at Italy's ousters from the World Cups of 1990, 1994 and 1998 and feel sorry for them.
    Messi's Argentina - which also lost a World Cup final in the 113th minute - never receives such sympathy.
     
  11. Oddo26

    Oddo26 Member

    Jul 12, 2014
    New York City
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Uruguay
    I mean you might have a point about detractors treating the tournament as a joke if he'd won but that tournament had more teams also Messi coming really close to beating the Copa winners isn't all that good. Sure Uruguay in 2011 was coming off a semi's trip but the other two Copa's were won by Chile.

    This isn't the same as Italy losing at the world cup three times and I also don't feel bad for those teams. That 90 Argentina team that beat Italy on penalties was the worst to ever make a final and Italy in 94 while I feel bad for Baggio and the specific way that ended, generally Italy had an easy path to the final and still kind of struggled. 98 and 02 and Euro 00 okay I feel a bit bad especially given the controversy with Korea but I think Italy was super lucky to win in 2006 and that generally the luck goes both ways if you're consistently in those situations. Same with Messi think he got good luck in 2014 and bad luck in 2018. Ronaldo has had worse luck than Messi, in the world cup he's gotten groups of deaths and tough knockout matches ever since that 2006 match. Ronaldo still has won a Euro and he did it with a considerably worse team than Messi has. Should have won 2 if not for the whole Greece thing.
     
  12. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Still, that Portugal team did have what you term as "good luck".
     
  13. Oddo26

    Oddo26 Member

    Jul 12, 2014
    New York City
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Uruguay
    Yeah but that luck resulted in a win over a team that won the world cup two years later. They also lost to Greece in 04 with a far better team so everything worked itself out. You lose some you should have gotten you win some you shouldn't have. There's also more teams in the final tournament than South America has in it's entire confederation. Copa historically is the easiest tournament for players to win. Usually the odds are against a athlete winning a title in Copa if you're a star the odds are in your favor. Maradona didn't do it, but he'll always have the 86 world cup.
     
  14. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Tell that to Nuno Valente, Maniche, Costinha, Deco, Figo, Pauleta, Rui Costa, Nuno Gomes and the others who played in that 2004 tournament.
    It worked out for Cristiano since he was part of both teams.
    If Messi retired from Argentina today and the team went on to win Copa America and/or the World Cup within the next ten years it doesn't do any favors for Messi.
     
  15. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    If the topic is Ronaldo luck, then Portugal beating France without him is lucky as fuk for him.

    And just a reminder, Greece beat Portugal twice in Euro 04. Just saying ...
     
    Mifek and unclesox repped this.
  16. Oddo26

    Oddo26 Member

    Jul 12, 2014
    New York City
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Uruguay
    Exactly.

    Forgot about that second Greece loss in 04. Poor Portugal. They were the hosts too. That 04 team was pretty good also.
     
  17. falvo

    falvo Member+

    Mar 27, 2005
    San Jose & Florence
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    #42 falvo, Oct 17, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
    I saw Pele at the end of his caeer with the Cosmos and he was a shadow of his former self. In the old NASL anyway, Giorgio Chinaglia made him look like an above average forward.

    Maradona went to Napoli after having what a pretty disatrous 1982 World Cup and an average stay at Barcelona. The Spanish league was brutal in those days but the Serie A was also not an easy league to play in either. The defenses and goalkeepers were in my opinion at the time, the best in the world. Other than winning a few domestic Cups, Napoli were always a semi average team but never won anything until Maradona got there.

    Owner Corrado Feralino started buying and/or grooming players who were good enough to win the Serie A title on a suggestion from Maradona.

    Ciro Ferrara, Fernando DeNapoli, Salvatore Bagni , Andrea Carnevale and for their second title, Massimo Crippa, Alemao and Careca.


    Diego alone though didn't win it all while he was at Napoli. He was allowed to do whatever he wanted which thus lead to his drug problems.
     
  18. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    They played together for two years: 1976 and 1977.
    Pele was 35/36.
    Chinaglia was 29/30
     
  19. falvo

    falvo Member+

    Mar 27, 2005
    San Jose & Florence
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    #44 falvo, Oct 17, 2018
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2018
    Although I heard an interview from him in Italian before he died stating how Pele was a loveable guy, Chinaglia and Pele on the field anyway, couldn't really stand one another during their time together....

    Pele kept coming inside where Giorgio was and kept running into him so he told him to stay on the left or right wing.

     

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