By Dan Loney on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM
  1. Dan Loney

    Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 10, 2000
    Cincilluminati
    Club:
    Los Angeles Sol
    Country:
    Philippines
    #1 Dan Loney, Sep 29, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2017

    Deloitte UK's Promotion and Relegation Report - Part 5

    By Dan Loney on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM
    A couple of times, you almost have to feel for Deloitte.

    No nation with a closed league system has ever won the FIFA World Cup and there is support from within the US Men’s National Team organisation for a fuller consideration of the topic, with US Men’s National Coach Jürgen Klinsmann remarking: “This thrill of the relegation battle is non-existent in the U.S. league. The risk for club investors to all of a sudden play in the second league would be too high. But the sporting side would benefit from it. Our players from Europe know that. That furthers our national team. Something is at stake week in, week out. Be it at the top or at the bottom, you always have to perform.”

    Juergen Klinsmann made that statement in 2015. The report was dated November 9, 2016.

    And on November 9, 2016, as Hillary Clinton was putting the final touches on her acceptance speech, Deloitte probably felt pretty good about this paragraph. Klinsmann really did say it, after all.

    On November 11, Mexico would defeat the United States in Columbus, for the first time ever. On November 15, Klinsmann would coach his last game for the United States, a 4-0 thumping in Costa Rica. And on November 21, US Soccer decided it was hungry enough to eat Klinsmann’s contract.

    And so it happened that on November 26, Deloitte released its Executive Summary to the public, fully aware that the horse they bet on had thrown a shoe, tossed its rider, veered into the crowd and exploded.

    I think if Deloitte had some idea of the lack of thickness of the ice upon which Klinsi was skating – and I didn’t, until US Soccer announced its Honors List for the Order of the Sack – they might have backed up their “promotion and relegation improves player development” section with a little more time and effort.

    But, knowing what we do now about DeloitteUK’s methods? Probably not. Because the whole Klinsmann testimony wasn’t even the stupid part of the paragraph.

    No nation with a closed league system has ever won the FIFA World Cup

    I guess we could say that doesn’t prove anything resembling a correlation between the two…but still. That’s a pretty bold and solid statement.

    How can we disprove it?

    It probably wouldn’t do any good to point out that there has been a promotion and relegation league in the United States for decades – the Cosmopolitan League. But it hasn’t attracted broadcast attention. It hasn’t provided compelling enough content for television. It hasn’t won over investors and sponsors. And, obviously, hasn’t produced anyone who has won the World Cup.

    However, that’s not what we’re testing. Lots of nations with promotion and relegation haven’t won a World Cup. But everyone knows that no nation with a closed league has ever won the World Cup.

    ….for a certain definition of the word “closed.”

    Here are the results and final table for the Sao Paulo state league in 1950.

    It was a tough year for the Brazil national team, but also a tough year for a team named Jabaquara. One of the least important teams during the golden age of Sao Paulo football, Jabaquara finished dead last in 1950…and decided they’d rather not be relegated, thank you very much.

    Jabaquara 1950.PNG

    No team was relegated. Jabaquara would be relegated but recurred successfully to the Sportive Court alleging that, due to be one of the FPF founder clubs, the federation rules allowed the club to never be relegated.

    If you think Jabaquara took advantage of such a ruling - boy, are you right.

    Jabaquara 1951.PNG

    Jabaquara (last-placed of 1st level) and XV de Jaú (champions of 2nd level) played a play-off to define one berth in the 1st level of 1952:

    03/02/1952 XV de Jaú 5-0 Jabaquara
    10/02/1952 Jabaquara 2-0 XV de Jaú
    17/02/1952 XV de Jaú 1-0 Jabaquara


    XV de Jaú classified to 1952 first level.

    After this, Jabaquara was also allowed to play the 1952 first level.

    That seems like bad sportsmanship. If Jabaquara had won that third game – what was this, the MLS first-to-five? – would they have let XV de Novembro de Jaú stay up?

    Maybe the rest of the league decided enough was enough. After our heroes stunk up the league for the third straight year, Jabaquara was finally kicked into the second division in 1952.

    And now we bump into something of a mystery. Jabaquara doesn’t seem to have played in the second division until 1964.

    The records for the Paulista second division in 1953 show that Jabaquara lost every game – in a walkover.

    There’s no record of Jabaquara playing anywhere in 1954. But for the 1955 season, this happened:

    Jabaquara 1954.PNG

    Jabaquara promptly finished last. And once again, Jabaquara declined the honor of relegation.

    Jabaquara 1955.PNG

    It’s almost as if Jabaquara couldn’t actually prove they deserved top division status, but instead sued their way to first division status. Can you imagine if a team tried that today?

    Anyway, Jabaquara finished last again in 1956, but still weren’t relegated.

    Jabaquara continued to avoid relegation through a time-tested technique called “not finishing last,” although they were second to last in 1958, 1961 and 1962. Finally, in 1963, this happened:

    Jabaquara 1963.PNG

    Okay, so Jabaquara was exempt from promotion…as one of the founding teams. But nobody important was playing for that litigious little piece of founding garbage. It’s the teams that actually produced the talent that matter.

    Say, I wonder who the other founding members of the Sao Paulo state league were.

    Corinthians…Palmeiras…Portuguesa…Sao Paulo…Santos….hm. So between 1955 and 1963, none of those teams could be relegated from the Sao Paulo league.

    Unless I badly miss my guess, between 1955 and 1963, Brazil won two World Cups. Their first two World Cups.

    And it turns out that every player on the 1958 and 1962 roster from the Paulista league played for Corinthians…Palmeiras…Portuguesa…Sao Paulo…or Santos. Even DeloitteUK has probably heard of one of the guys who played for Santos.

    …what do you mean, that’s not good enough?

    The biggest teams producing all of the talent couldn’t get relegated during one of the most brilliant eras in world soccer history. That doesn’t change your opinion? You don’t think that disproves the idea that promotion and relegation is necessary for a World Cup? You don’t think that settles the argument that promotion and relegation has nothing to do with high quality player development? Pele, for God's sake. Pele!

    Yes, I’m well aware of the Rio league. Yes, I’m well aware that more than half of the 1958 and 1962 rosters, including Garrincha, Nilton Santos, and Didi, were from the Carioca First Division.

    What will it take? What evidence will you accept? Will it take an entire World Cup-winning roster of players from closed leagues to convince you?

    Hope you’ll settle for two. The Rio leagues didn’t have promotion and relegation at all.

    Rio D2 champs 1931-65.PNG

    There was actually very little relegation from the Rio league until 1977.

    1937-1959 unknown

    In 1960, the former Distrito Federal was renamed to Guanabara state and
    the recently inaugurated city of Brasília became the new Distrito Federal.

    Em 1960, o antigo Distrito Federal foi renomeado como estado da Guanabara e a recém-inaugurada cidade de Brasília se tornou o novo Distrito Federal.

    Guanabara State - Second Division (Segunda Divisão)
    1960-1964 unknown
    1965 - São Cristóvão de FR (Rio de Janeiro) [11]
    1966-1977 not realized

    During the Pele years, there was no relegation at all for Paulista clubs until 1964, and the Rio league was effectively closed until 1977.

    So that was roughly half of Brazil's rosters for 1966 and 1970 free from promotion and relegation. Oh, and the entirety of Brazil's 1958 and 1962 rosters. Both of those, you will recall, were wins for Brazil. With not a single player who had to worry about promotion and relegation in the slightest.

    Brazil’s official national championship started in 1971. I…don’t know if we could it a “league” in the early days. It was more like a national championship among regional league winners, like West Germany had before the Bundesliga. Only more complicated. In any case, there wasn't what you'd call relegation on the national level until 1989 or so.

    I’d love to say promotion and relegation ruined Brazilian soccer, but Brazil has won a couple of World Cups since then. But the assumption that only promotion and relegation can develop quality players or win World Cups does not stand up to scrutiny. Brazil proves the null hypothesis. Promotion and relegation did not exist as a motivating factor for the players developed during the golden years of Brazilian soccer; they won three World Cups during that time.

    And, again, DeloitteUK could almost be forgiven for not knowing this. It is a widely held assumption that promotion and relegation is somehow intrinsic to football. And as other cherished myths about promotion and relegation continue to be demolished, the player development motivational theory seemed solid and reliable.

    I think “relegation is motivational” comes from a dark place, and “promotion is motivational” comes from a stupid place. Just for giggles, we’ll tackle those in our next chapter. Until then, enjoy this quiz.

    US PROMOTION AND RELEGATION COACHING LICENSE – FINAL EXAM

    1. You’re coaching the U-7 team. A parent storms up to you and asks, “Why aren’t you playing my little Muggsy? How will he get a scholarship if YOU don’t know how to coach?” You respond:

    (A) “Sir and/or madam, the odds of your child getting a college scholarship, let alone a pro contract, are ridiculously long. The most important thing is to teach the joy of the game.”

    (B) “You don’t understand football culture. Without promotion and relegation, Muggsy has no chance to develop. You would think that would be my job, but for some reason I can’t teach basic skills unless the Colorado Rapids can get relegated. And for some reason that makes me a player development expert and not a pretentious babysitter in a tracksuit."​

    2. You’re coaching the U-9 team. There’s Muggsy, strolling around like he runs on chlorophyll. “Why should I exert further effort? The professional leagues in this country refuse to promote and relegate.” You respond:

    (A) “Fine, you’re benched.”

    (B) “’Tis true. And I have no incentive to teach or inspire you while the Colorado Rapids refuse to relegate. Because promotion and relegation is holistic, apparently.”​

    3. You’re coaching the New England Revolution, because why wouldn’t you be? The Revolution have signed Muggsy as a Designated Player, because you absolutely know they would. But Muggsy has not shown you that extra special little bit of desire your team. “I hate you and hope you get fired. I don’t care about this team at all, and I want to play somewhere else.” You respond:

    (A) “Fine. I’m sure we can find someone willing to play soccer in exchange for money.”

    (B) “If only this team, which he literally just said he didn’t care about, was at risk of relegation.”​

    4. You’ve decided to test yourself in Europe. You’re coaching Rayo Vallecano, and you’re away to Real Atletico Barca-Madrid. That’s right, they all merged. It’s win or go down. But Muggsy isn’t getting the job done against Messi, for some reason. “Try harder!” you shout. Muggsy halts the game, grabs the public address speaker and says “I am trying harder, you *******! They’re just ******* better than we are!” You respond:

    (A) “Wait, Messi hasn’t been in a relegation scrap for forty-five seconds of his life. But my scrubs have been facing relegation every day of their lives. Why aren’t they better than Messi, if promotion and relegation is such a miracle cure? Maybe there is a logical fallacy in assuming increased motivation means increased results. After all, if someone told me to defeat Floyd Mayweather or they would shoot my family, I would simply end up taking my two black eyes and broken nose to the funeral. Perhaps I should have thought this through a little more, before demanding that an entire sport bow to my arbitrary preferences. Oh, and my team are all grown men by now, so how much more development am I realistically going to get out of these bozos? Wait a minute – promotion and relegation doesn’t have a direct effect on youth players, and can only have a limited effect on adult talent. My whole life is a lie!”

    (B) “YOU just don’t WANT it enough!”
    [Minorish EDITS made along the lines mentioned below in comments. ALWAYS HAPPY TO BE CORRECTED]
     
    Q*bert Jones III and JulesMIA repped this.

Comments

Discussion in 'Articles' started by Dan Loney, Sep 29, 2017.

    1. Kejsare

      Kejsare Member+

      Mar 10, 2010
      Stafford, VA
      Club:
      Portland Timbers
      Country:
      United States

      Deloitte UK's Promotion and Relegation Report - Part 5

      By Dan Loney on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM
      Drink Pro/Rel Slightly-Flavored Miracle Water!
      "Even you can be better than Muggsy, New England Revolution's star soccer player!"
       
    2. Kejsare

      Kejsare Member+

      Mar 10, 2010
      Stafford, VA
      Club:
      Portland Timbers
      Country:
      United States

      Deloitte UK's Promotion and Relegation Report - Part 5

      By Dan Loney on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM
      BTW, this was a softball argument to knock down. But boy was it fun to read.
       
      "username" repped this.
    3. barroldinho

      barroldinho Member+

      Aug 13, 2007
      Ex-pat in HB, CA
      Club:
      Manchester United FC
      Country:
      England

      Deloitte UK's Promotion and Relegation Report - Part 5

      By Dan Loney on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM
      Coming soon: The DeloitteUK Report on why it's farcical that MLS has supporters groups with one or more guys leading chants from the front of the stands. The report backs up its claims using examples of authentic fan culture from clubs like Borussia Dortmund and AC Roma.
       
    4. aetraxx7

      aetraxx7 Member+

      Jun 25, 2005
      Des Moines, IA
      Club:
      Des Moines Menace
      Country:
      United States

      Deloitte UK's Promotion and Relegation Report - Part 5

      By Dan Loney on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM
      This was great. If only the pro/rel nuts could use a bit of gray matter to reach the same conclusion... To think, Deloitte's work was primarily conducted to allow the shady and shaky NASL owners something to use to push for a cheaper way into the first tier. Their latest lawsuit pretty much hinges on the crap in this report, at least in theory.
       
      Cavan9 repped this.
    5. KCbus

      KCbus Moderator
      Staff Member

      Columbus Crew SC
      United States
      Nov 26, 2000
      Reynoldsburg, OH
      Club:
      Columbus Crew
      Country:
      United States

      Deloitte UK's Promotion and Relegation Report - Part 5

      By Dan Loney on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM
      By the way, even if it WAS true that all the World Cup winners were products of pro/leagues, so what? I don't assume that the responsibility of a domestic league is to help its host country win championships -- it's to operate a successful league.
       
      aetraxx7, Kejsare and JulesMIA repped this.
    6. kenntomasch

      kenntomasch Member+

      Sep 2, 1999
      Out West
      Club:
      FC Tampa Bay Rowdies
      Country:
      United States

      Deloitte UK's Promotion and Relegation Report - Part 5

      By Dan Loney on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM
      "Finally, in 1963, this happened:"

      Was there supposed to be something there that happened? Not seeing anything.

      " I…don’t know if we can could it a “league” in the early days."

      Could call it a league? Can call it a league? Can could it a league?

      #editorsorry
       
    7. Martininho

      Martininho Member+

      Feb 13, 2007
      Chicago
      Club:
      --other--
      Country:
      United States

      Deloitte UK's Promotion and Relegation Report - Part 5

      By Dan Loney on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM
      All of the above? Where's my prize?

      What?
       
    8. Dan Loney

      Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

      Mar 10, 2000
      Cincilluminati
      Club:
      Los Angeles Sol
      Country:
      Philippines

      Deloitte UK's Promotion and Relegation Report - Part 5

      By Dan Loney on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM
      Maybe I'll fix it, maybe I won't, what do you think of that
       
      AndyMead repped this.
    9. JulesMIA

      JulesMIA Member

      MBU
      United States
      Sep 19, 2017

      Deloitte UK's Promotion and Relegation Report - Part 5

      By Dan Loney on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM
      And, as pointed out, it isn't like pro/rel made the elite players better, they were already in clubs that had never been in danger of relegation.
       
      aetraxx7 repped this.
    10. dantasu

      dantasu Member

      Portuguesa Santista
      Brazil
      Dec 8, 2009
      Santos
      Club:
      --other--
      Country:
      Japan

      Deloitte UK's Promotion and Relegation Report - Part 5

      By Dan Loney on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM
      Jabaquara being reason of shame even in an english language article.

      Hahahahah!

      Jabuca, nunca sai da segunda
      Vou enterrar seu caixão
      Seu timinho de bosta
      A cidade é nossa!
       
    11. Dan Loney

      Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

      Mar 10, 2000
      Cincilluminati
      Club:
      Los Angeles Sol
      Country:
      Philippines

      Deloitte UK's Promotion and Relegation Report - Part 5

      By Dan Loney on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM
      Thanks - I'd rather be fun than right.

      ("How come you're neither?" Shut up)

      But I don't think it's generally known that the Pele generation was developed without promotion and relegation. I certainly didn't, before poking around the old tables on RSSSF.com.

      https://www.socceramerica.com/publications/article/74275/prorel-the-case-for-and-against.html - Paul Kennedy's no dummy, and I doubt he would have put player development as a blanket pro if someone was going to say "What about Pele and Garrincha".

      And don't get me started on THESE guys: http://blog.3four3.com/2014/02/13/mls-promotion-relegation-us-soccer/
      http://farpostfooty.com/2014/10/23/the-obsession-with-average/

      "You must have promotion and relegation to develop world-class players," is a stupid argument, and never stood up to logic. But it's nice to have a couple of reasonably famous players to prove the counter-argument factually.
       
      FalconFan, JulesMIA and AndyMead repped this.
    12. Brother Badgerjohn

      Oct 16, 2000
      Okie City
      Club:
      --other--
      Country:
      United States

      Deloitte UK's Promotion and Relegation Report - Part 5

      By Dan Loney on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM
      I didn't know Gary Klieban wrote the Coach Certification tests now.
       
    13. italiancbr

      italiancbr Member

      Apr 15, 2007

      Deloitte UK's Promotion and Relegation Report - Part 5

      By Dan Loney on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM
      I don't follow the logic here. Truly an apples to oranges comparison. Brazilian clubs had pipelines for future talent and soccer was already the established sport in the country.
      Perhaps this can give you more perspective:

      -As a parent, would you prefer that there is a local professional club that admits youth at the U5 or U7 level with the aim of producing professional footballers for the first team? Or would you prefer the current convoluted system? My city has a USL team that doesn't have an academy. To be honest, I don't understand the youth system at any level. I think anyone who becomes a soccer pro in the U.S. is in spite of the system, rather than because of it.

      -As a youth player, would you prefer to play for a team that believes in age-specific activities and numbers in its training and competitive environments in order to turn you into a better player? What about playing in a system that believes in foundational proficiency, self-discovery, and a sound technical foundation? Or would you want to be in the current system where there is no regulation on youth coaches or teams and winning is put before development? A youth club in the U.S. has much more incentive to focus on short-term goals. Perhaps some MLS teams have built their academies all the way down to the U5 and U7 level, but obviously most of the country isn't benefiting from a closed system when there are only 18 U.S. cities with MLS teams out of 388 U.S. metro areas.

      -As a soccer fan, if your team is near the bottom of MLS, would you be more inclined to watch if there was a relegation battle? For casual soccer fans or those without an MLS team, do you prefer to watch European teams over an MLS game? For fans of all the NASL/USL teams, would you prefer promotion to MLS or a NASL/USL championship?

      Basically what I am saying is that to better understand the issue, you have to look at it somewhat objectively from all these viewpoints. Is the game being stunted? Well imagine living in Omaha as a player, parent, or fan of soccer. Do they have the same opportunities as someone from LA or New York? This is why in many parts of the country, college basketball and football are more popular than the pro games. And in other parts, especially rural or smaller towns, even HS football and basketball is popular. Although those sports have closed systems, there is an established career progression with a large following at all levels. Soccer is lacking that grassroots support and it will never exist at the HS and college levels or even at the NASL/USL level as long as there is no pro/rel. The best way to counter that support in other sports is to have an open system in soccer.
       
      "username" repped this.
    14. AndyMead

      AndyMead Homo Sapien

      Nov 2, 1999
      Seat 12A
      Club:
      Sporting Kansas City

      Deloitte UK's Promotion and Relegation Report - Part 5

      By Dan Loney on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM
      I don't recall any concern about a "pro development pipeline" or plan when I played youth baseball, football, and basketball. They were activities to get me outside that I enjoyed. I think for the majority of youth sports participants, the primary objective is exercise, socialization, and the experience. It's not about getting a scholarship or keeping professional options open.

      And just "having fun" doesn't preclude skill development.
       
    15. Brother Badgerjohn

      Oct 16, 2000
      Okie City
      Club:
      --other--
      Country:
      United States

      Deloitte UK's Promotion and Relegation Report - Part 5

      By Dan Loney on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM
      - A U5/U7 Development program? I don't care if you bring out Zidane to run the practices, children at that age play in the 4-0-0 formation with everyone running the overlap on the ball.

      I also live in a USL city. A dedicated system to identify, train, develop, house and school youngsters from their pre-tween days is significantly beyond the means of many MLS teams, not to mention NASL/USL teams, and much less these PDL/NPSL squads that both tend to fly by night and captivate the dreams of the ProRel4USA crowd.

      While I'd love to see the Energy uncover and develop the next Zlatan on the playgrounds of Moore, they're going to have to continue to use the existing system while they focus capital and effort on more existential short term goals - like drawing 5K fans to their next game against Swope Park. A youth-driven vision of the future won't happen if you can't pay the bills after three seasons.

      -Based on my 20 years of officiating, this sounds like the pitch of every youth program I've ever been involved with. Serious club youth academies usually kick in at the U13 level. I'm not sure this disproves Dan's thesis.

      -If my team is there, I'm there. I wouldn't be more or less inclined if pro/rel were on the line. But, then again, I count myself as a loyal fan. There are thousands more who care more deeply about the level of play and would likely be turned off. Those people aren't watching my team to see if they drop to down: They're watching La Liga.

      Actually, that's not true: They're watching Barca or Real Madrid. For the record, just who did get relegated from La Liga last year? I'm sure it was such an entertaining fight, as all relegation battles are, that you can recall the teams off the top of your head without checking Wikipedia. That must have made it more likely that you watched, right?

      - Does a player from Omaha have the same shot as a player from NY or LA? Not sure. But it evidently wasn't a hindrance to kids from Ft. Wayne, Nacogdoches, or Hershey trying to catch Arena's eye for this weekend's roster.

      If you really, really, REALLY want Pro/Rel, barking up the tree of player development and opportunity will get nowhere. Several nations have it and can't produce anyone better than Stefan Frei or Georgios Samaras, who must humbly seek employment in our horrible closed system (in the case of the latter, the second division of said system). It's only going to happen the way it happened in those other nations: an overabundance of top-level markets and clubs with the stability to make second division palatable. Butts in seats and lines at the beer stand come before cradle-to-Clearasil youth compounds, not before.
       
    16. aetraxx7

      aetraxx7 Member+

      Jun 25, 2005
      Des Moines, IA
      Club:
      Des Moines Menace
      Country:
      United States

      Deloitte UK's Promotion and Relegation Report - Part 5

      By Dan Loney on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM
      As in, you are making an apples to oranges comparison? The development of youth players is not directly tied to pro/rel. I believe that was Dan's point. If that was the case, this would be the development model for every sport because, fundamentally, it would be the same process. Sure, the skill sets, equipment, and seasons are different, but all professional athletes have to go through some type of development.
      Apply you logic to basketball, baseball, ice hockey, lacrosse, rugby, or any other sport that is played globally and you will find that the top talent comes from countries without pro/rel in that sport. There is no fundamental difference in developing a soccer player compared to these other sports. The real difference is that soccer is cheaper to learn and play due to the relative lack of required equipment and specialized playing surfaces.
      You are correct when you point out that our development system is severely flawed and has traditionally skewed more towards the coasts and major cities. But that has more to do with media and population than the absence of pro/rel. If I am a scout, I would rather spend a week in one location where I can see thousands of athletes than spend that week traveling through the midwest (I'm from Iowa) to see half that, at best.
       
      JulesMIA repped this.
    17. JulesMIA

      JulesMIA Member

      MBU
      United States
      Sep 19, 2017

      Deloitte UK's Promotion and Relegation Report - Part 5

      By Dan Loney on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM
      Which is why we have seen an explosion in scouting camps over the last decade.
       
    18. Dan Loney

      Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

      Mar 10, 2000
      Cincilluminati
      Club:
      Los Angeles Sol
      Country:
      Philippines

      Deloitte UK's Promotion and Relegation Report - Part 5

      By Dan Loney on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM
      Even assuming this had anything to do with promotion and relegation, what kind of monster of a parent would want such a thing? How about teaching the kids to, I don't know, read and write? Maybe do a little math?

      There is absolutely a precedent for a system that consistently cranked out world-class athletes - they called it East Germany.

      Make up your mind.

      Shame how our closed basketball system has been stunting our growth all these years, too.

      "If" my team is near the bottom of MLS.

      Why would you market this year's Galaxy, let alone how? Tell me how motivated Van Damme would have been to stay if relegation to USL had been at stake. Or how much more Gio Dos Santos would have scored if relegation was at stake, as opposed to, say, Mexico call-ups.

      In any case, the evidence is that no, fans are not more inclined to watch relegation games. Deloitte showed no evidence of that, and what evidence there is suggests that fans would rather watch good teams than bad ones, no matter what kind of artificial construct you put around the league standings.

      No one is stopping you.

      You need, or Deloitte needed, or someone needs, to show how you get from promotion and relegation to the end goal, an "established career progression with a large following at all levels." Even if correlation was causation, there isn't even any correlation.
       
    19. italiancbr

      italiancbr Member

      Apr 15, 2007

      Deloitte UK's Promotion and Relegation Report - Part 5

      By Dan Loney on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM
      I was going to write a lengthy reply just like you did....but then I think the best way I can sum it up is: T&T has pro and rel. So does Panama and Honduras. I'd rather be right than get reps. So if you think "the American Way" is normal, there's really nothing else I can say to convince you just like you can break down the report down in 20 parts and you still won't convince me. I really wish you could talk to Taylor Twellman on ESPN after last night and tell him how great American soccer is doing.
       
    20. AndyMead

      AndyMead Homo Sapien

      Nov 2, 1999
      Seat 12A
      Club:
      Sporting Kansas City

      Deloitte UK's Promotion and Relegation Report - Part 5

      By Dan Loney on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM
      How did that work out four years ago?

      The assumption that winning makes someone or something right is the intellectual equivalent of the 240lb dock worker asking the 150lb accountant if he "wants to take it outside".

      Might makes right? Right?
       
      aetraxx7 repped this.
    21. italiancbr

      italiancbr Member

      Apr 15, 2007
      #22 italiancbr, Oct 11, 2017
      Last edited: Oct 11, 2017

      Deloitte UK's Promotion and Relegation Report - Part 5

      By Dan Loney on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM
      I think you're going off on a tangent and I don't follow. What does that have to do with anything? Four years ago? What are you saying? How does Costa Rica, a country with a total of four Olympic medals EVER, and a population of 4 million beat the U.S. twice? You don't attribute that to development and a better youth set-up? You're still holding out that the U.S. is doing development right?
       
    22. AndyMead

      AndyMead Homo Sapien

      Nov 2, 1999
      Seat 12A
      Club:
      Sporting Kansas City

      Deloitte UK's Promotion and Relegation Report - Part 5

      By Dan Loney on Sep 29, 2017 at 5:03 PM
      Because it's not 320 million vs 4 million.

      Brazil doesn't win every World Cup for the same reason.

      You play 11-14 guys several standard deviations from mean against our 11-14 guys several standard deviations from mean.

      That far out on the fringe, gross population matters less and less.
       
      aetraxx7 repped this.

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